HomeMy WebLinkAbout1991 12 04 - TranscriptBO_ .D OF COUNTY COMMISSIG_ . ERS
1840 25th Street, Vero Beach, Florida 32960
Telephone:(407)567-8000
December 4, 1991
Mr. Robb McClary
City Manager
City of Sebastian
Post Office Box 127
Sebastian, FL 32958-0127
Dear Robb:
Soncom Telephone: 224.1011
The County recently obtained a verbatim transcript of the Sebastian City
Council meeting of November 6, 1991, at which the City's consulting
attorney, Tom Cloud, presented an update on the negotiations with the
County for the return of the water and sewer franchise to the City. The
County negotiating team is very concerned at the number of inaccuracies in
the presentation. As we have discussed, on the date of the Council
meeting, the County negotiating team had also met to review the latest draft
of the interlocal agreement submitted by Mr. Cloud.
Based on the prior negotiating meeting and the new draft from Mr. McCloud,
our team was of the opinion that we were very close to an agreement
satisfactory to both the City and County. The points relating to timing and
metering, as well as the absence of Park Place in the draft, in our opinion,
required further discussion. However, none of these matters appeared to be
major obstacles that could not be resolved by further discussion by the two
negotiating teams. Our negotiating team is still unanimously of that opinion.
However, our team is concerned that the inaccuracies presented at the
November meeting need to be addressed, in order to remove any unnecessary
impediments to the continued progress in arriving at a mutually acceptable
interlocal agreement. As a result, enclosed is a copy of the verbatim
transcript and our team's general response to it.
We look forward to
a productive negotiating
meeting on
Thursday and will
have a redraft nf
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meeting.
Sincerely,
James E. Chandler
County Administrator
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Enclosures
SEBASTIAN CITY COUNCIL MEETING
NOVEMBER 6, 1991
(1) Attorney Cloud: First of all, for the record, my name is Tom
Cloud. I'm with the Orlando law firm of Gregg, Harris, Robinson,
and Peoples. We sent, late yesterday, a briefing document.
I don't know if all of you got one. If you don't have one, I've got an
extra copy here. I'd be glad to give it to you right now. They'll be
available after the meeting, but I'm going to tell you everything
that's in that document. It's a pretty short one.
(2) There are four items I'd like to cover tonight. I'll try to be as
brief as possible and answer any questions you may have. The first is
to describe the status of the negotiations. I think, on the whole,
they've been pretty positive. We've had a series of meetings with the
County personnel. The last meeting that we had was over at the County
offices. There have been some what I'll call "signal crossings" in
this thing. Initially, as some of you will recall, Mr. Scurlock and
other County officials indicated_ that their offer was really very
open-ended; that the City could take back all or part of the franchise,
4i..... .i: Ai IF real l.. rare
(3) Well, at our. last meeting, they saidthey really did care, that
they wanted us to either take all or none, and when asked the question
that that's not exactly what you said to begin with, the response was
by Mr. Scurlock, "Gosh, gee, i just don't remember what i said." So, I
mean, thre=e's a i e i o at that goes on in all negotiations,
but for the most part, I think they've been very positive negotiations
and I think that we're very close to an agreement right now and before
we finalized it, we wanted to bring it to you to let you know where we
were, get some input back from you about the agreement to see if you
were satisfied with it, if we were going in the right direction. And
right now, the conceptual agreement that's before you is not what I
would call the best of all worlds for the City, but I think it's a lot
better than the situation that you have now.
(4) The agreement, the proposed agreement, that we have sent to the
County and that we found out today, but for two points, they're in
aarppmpnt with, calls for the cancellation of the County franchise in
the six months from the date that we sign the agreement.
(5) It calls for the City to be a wholesale customer of the County and
when you think about it, there's one of two ways to go: either we can
continue to receive service with the Countv being a retail provider
until we are ready to provide the services through our own systems,_
which is what we prefer, or you can receive it through a bulk_
arrangement, which is what the County is now insisting upon. And this
wholesale arrangement would click in at the end of that six-month
period, and the City would be the retail provider of utilities, and
would actually render the bills.
(6) And most importantly, would get to make decisions _without veto
were
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agreement.
(7) Another provision would allow for the rE
option immediately upon execution of the
required. to buy._-GDU .under this agreement, a
because there are some investigations that
operability of the plants. Just to update
Hartman's already been able to ascertain Y
plants several years ago, these very plants,
what their current price should be.
or you're
G
!turn of the GDU purchase
agreement. You were not
s indeed you couldn't be
need to be made of the
the information that Mr.
y having to analyze the
as well as to determine
(8) Another provision provides that rates to be charged by the County
will be nondiscriminatory and based on a cost of service. We've
actually asked, since April, for some data on what those rates would be
and we're still waiting to receive that and I'm sure that we will
receive that from the County eventually, and certainly before we sign
the agreement, because we've called for the components of the rates to
be attached to the agreement; we think that's a prudent thing for you
to know, and for the City to know what they're getting into before you
sign.
(9) Finally, the agreement provides for the later transfer.of customer
flows from the County sewer plant to the City sewer plant, and that's
when the City is ready, when the City has capacity available and, so
that the. County is not hurt, when the County has the ability to bring
in another customer. And that can occur on a customer -by -customer
basis. It doesn't have to occur all at once.
(10) So those are the basic outlines of the agreement. And I think
it's important at this point to analyze this agreement and ask yourself
the question, "How does this stack up with the existing agreement you
have with the County?" And I think that, again while it's not the best
case that we could have hoped for, what we were initially led to
believe by the County we could obtain, in fact, is still better off
than the deal you have today.
(11) Question from the floor: Why is that?
(12) Attorney Cloud: Well, you're certainly no worse off because
you're still going to be having the ultimate sewer service provided by
the County. Notice I did not say water, and that's because right now,
the County has no water service in the City. They have yet to run the
first line to provide water service in your city.
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(13) They are serving approximately 95 units of sewer capacity;
considerably less than the original 2,000 that signed up to buy
capacity; in fact, most of that capacity was turned -back in and only
about 700 of those 2 000 remain outstandinqand not all of those people
have actually put up their money.
(14) So the demand appears to be less than what was originally thought
by anyone on the system. The City's arguably better off under this
arrangement because, unlike the existing agreement which requires you
to be the enforcement arm of the County, when the County says, "Jump!"
and the County says, "This is the assessment program that we want to
place in the City --here's where we're going to serve now," under that
agreement, you are required to do that. You are required to be the
olicemen for the Count in enforcin mandator connection,
interesting y, under the agreement for.both water and sewer, under that
scenario. Under the new agreement, the decision goes back to you. The
decision goes back to the City, and it's a decision that the City can
then exercise based upon input from its citizens, without being
overridden by a governmental entity outside of the City.
(15) And, a second point, why are
option. And I think that the GDL
this City, because the one t ing t
and it is the kind of thing while
to acquire GDU, you will have the
seek to acquire GDU, I think under
rnntract_ual richt to acquire at
you better off, you get back the GDU
option is going to be important to
Fe GDU systems have is expandability,
this agreement does not mandate you
ability.to acquire GDU and if you do
vour franchise options, you have the
negotiated quite wisely in 1981, and with that comes
both water and, if you so choose, sewer.
ility in
(16 ) Now, the last item that I wanted to cover with you is two very
recent phone calls that were made. I was, in an effort to try and find
out where the County was with respect to what we submitted to them, I
called up the County Attorney today, Charles Vitunac, and asked him,
and he had indicated previously that the staff and Commissioner
Scurlock were going to meet this afternoon. And I'm very pleased to
report that with the exception of two items, they're in agreement with
what we submitted to them. And the two items are these, and we talked
about these two items with both Charles Vitunac and with Terry Pinto.
We were able to reach Terry Pinto; we were sitting out there in the car
talking with him up until about five minutes after seven; that's why we
were a little late getting in.
(17) But the two points are these: first of all, they would like for
us to install the sewer meters. The way we had this drafted, they
would install the sewer meters and bill us back for them through the
rates. These sewer meters, and we believe that anywhere from three to
five will need to be installed at each of the major pump stations, are
fairly expensive items, and Mr. Hartman talked with Mr. Pinto about
deferring the actual installation of those meters until they were
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really necessary. Some of you may know you can actually bill based
upon water consumption, rather than using a sewer meter. In fact, it's
probably more accurate to do that, because sewer- meters are not
terribly accurate in terms of the metering business, and I believe that
Mr. Hartman was successful in getting Terry to agree that we could work
on that in terms of deferring when those meters were installed.
(18) The second item dealt with the timing. In the meeting, we were
originally told by Mr. Scurlock, and of course there were a couple of
reporters there so this is something that is very easily verifiable,
that they would like for us to take over everything in January, but
yeah, he could go along with four months, and we suggested back that,
"Well, what about six months - it's only two months more - the actual
decision of the City getting into the business is being made when we
sign the agreement, what's a couple of months among friends?" Mr.
Vitunac said that now Commissioner Scurlock is saying something.
entirely different, that he wants the City to take over in January,
certainly no later than February, and get immediately into the retail
business, which is different from what was said in the meeting to us.
And I asked. Charlie to explain to me why it was bad for the County to
go along with our six month suggestion. And he really was unable to
explain that, and that's when he suggested that I call Mr. Pinto and
speak with him.
(19) And so I had Mr. Hartman, who is our engineer, contact Mr. Pinto
and the truth is, Mr. Pinto, when we got down to discussing it, said
that he really didn't have a problem with it. It really .wasn't that
big of a deal tohim* L but -to Commissioner Scurlock it was a big deal_
with him. So we suggested, and I would like to suggest to you, that
you have Mr. McClary ask for some time from the County Commission so
that we can discuss this with the full County Commission and try and
straighten this' one point out, and get it straightened out so that
there's no more missed communications. That's been the one frustrating
part about this agreement; they sav one thing and then all of a sudden,_
t just keeps changing and mutating.
(20) We're very close to an agreement, and I think you should feel
quite positive about this and Mr. Vitunac has been very above -board and
has dealt straight up with us, and I have only good things to say about
that, and I think that we're very close to an agreement. We're still
missina a couple of exhibits. I think those will be worked out in due
course. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have, it you think
we're going in the right direction, or if you have some points that
you'd like to cover. We'd be happy to listen to them.
(21) Mayor Conyers: Aren't we supposed to have a meeting with the
County?
(22) City Manager McClary: We have a meeting set up with the County on
the 26th that they specifically requested is going to be solely on the
one subject of the Twin Pairs, because I had sent back and asked them
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if we could include other items on the agenda, as we had done in the
past, and they felt that the Twin Pairs/CR 512 issue was of sufficient
magnitude that that would occupy the entire meeting, so they chose not
to include other agenda items.
(23)Conyers: I've got a couple of questions. First off, well
it's actually it's to let some people here in the City know what's
going on: Number One, people in Park Place will be glad to know that
they're not going to be included in this, in the City's utilities rate;
also, we've never been told where we're going to get the money to pay
for all this, because I noticed some questions here on the back, and I
want you all to listen to this closely: mandatory connection,
mandatory assessment on each parcel based upon benefit and County
capacity for assessed parcels. What's gonna happen: we're gonna have
to make this say a mandatory connection,and every parcel of land you
own, regardless of whether you've got a house on it or not, you're
gonna be assessed on that particular lot to help finance this sewer
system. And as I've said in the beginning, and I'll say it again,
start from scratch in the utility and not have any idea of how we're
gonna pay for it, and letting the people that said it was a good idea
for us to get into it be the people that also negotiate all these
deals, is not the way to go.
(24) We're looking at over $6,000,000, at least, in years to come, and
we've never even heard the other side of the story about what questions
that maybe someone else may have about the sewer and water that we're
getting into. And in particular, I'm talking about Mr. John Little,
who I have asked to talk to Mr. Cloud, and I understand he did, and I
understand that Mr. Cloud was supposed to answer some of his questions;
I don't.know if he's done that or not. I also want Mr. Little to
appear here to at least let the public know some of the pitfalls of
stuff we're talking about getting into down the road, such as in state
health inspectors, running sewer plants, and God, the list goes on and
on.
(25) Another thing I'd like to challenge the City and the citizens
here: come into City Hall, and I want you to read this book, this
agreement, read all these agreements in our book that we've got for
tonight, and see if you can figure out what we're doing. Step One goes
to Step Two, and if we all do Step Three, we'll go to Step Four, and do
RtRn A and B. and, oh aee, what a, mess! We have a problem right now
with our police department. We've got a sewer system right now going
right down by our police station, that we're having a problem with
right now of getting hooked up with it, because it belongs to the
County. The Health Department wants us to hook up because it's
available. Some of the members of our staff don't seem to think that
that's the way to go; that we should spend more money to put in a
temporary situation and wait for down the road whenever we can get
started on our sewer and water.
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(26) In fact, I just think that I have nothing wrong with having sewer
and water. I think we need that. We need that for growth in this
City; it's absolutely imperative that we have it. But you can see the
problems that are happening. We've already got major lines that have
already been laid in this City. Sewer is available; it's here; most of
the work has been done. We don't have to hash this thing out all over
again, and I still say these engineers and these people up here are
telling us how great GDU's plant is, and they have vet to have been on
the property.
(27) They have yet to have been on that property... let's see, now what
are they, mindreaders? They can ride by and look at it and make an
X-ray vision of it, and tell us how great this GDU property is! Well,
I'm here to tell you what the County says, and I'll make a note what
one of our councilmen said, "Why is it a good idea when the County
wants to buy it, but it's not a good idea when we want to buy it?"
When the County comes in here and takes the sewer system, they'll
bulldoze that plant down out there. That's what they think about it.
That's all I have.
(28) Councilman Oberbeck: I have several items highlighted. I don't
know if they're worth rehashing, but I again would question the
integrity of the County when they stood here and said in a New York
minute we could have it back. We've been paying you guys for the last
few months. I look at the dates in this briefing document you've given
me today, and I kinda find a lot of them hard to believe on the part of
the County and some of the statements a are ma0e i , a Tey
erein a position o service Oil- customers in our City on
March 5
on,t think thatholds quite rue, a east from what I see.
The six-mon per!_oU_,-7—read that also in he agreement and what the
agreement means, and I couldn't understand myself why they shouldn't go
along with a six-month period. They wanted to be cooperative. Unless
that's part of the New York minute they talk about. As far as Park
Place is concerned I feel that I would insist that Park Place be part
of the negotiation, and that you look in the best interest of the City
in negotiating it, because that.is part of the City, and we can't leave
that a stepchild for the community. We represent the entire City, and
I would hope that you would look out for our best interest in acquiring
Park Place along with the rest of the system.
(29) As far as a mandatoryconnection, it's not unusual; I believe it's
law. If it passes within so many feet of your property, it's mandaied
that you connect to it. I, for one, have six parcels or seven parcels
of property in this community. Some of them are developed; some are
not developed. I'm gonna have to pay because I think i•,:'s going to
better the community. So I probably will be paying, to the best of my
knowledge, seven times as much as you're paying, Mr. Mayor. But I
think it's worth it. I think it's something we need, we can control
our own destiny, we can bring in proper growth, and all the way down
rdo
the line, this thing from the County's
thing we can do is throw it out. So I
bringing this briefing document.
been "bassackwards." The best
appreciate what you're doing in
(30) Councilman Holyk: Mr. Cloud, I have just a couple of quick
questions. We've listened to one thing in the press, and it's. very
convenient to have the press who's always there to hear how the County
is willing to do anything and everything they can to help the City do
this correctly. There are a.couple of questions that I have. Number
One, it seems to me that. by the County mandating a date very near in
the future for us to take, not what they said was what we felt would be
best for us, but to take all or none does that seem to you to be an
effort to overwhelm the possibility of us doing is
correctl or is
that fust -mv ma nat on could you speak to that for a moment,
please?
(31) Attorney Cloud: Well, you know, it's certainly not making it easy
on us, is it? -
(32) Councilman Holyk: It doesn't sound that way to me, and I guess
that's what I'm asking., Is that the easiest way for us to do it? It
doesn't sound that way to me.
(33) Attorney Cloud: Well, it's not the easiest way for us to do it.
I really can't speculate on what the County's motivations are for that,
and would notwant to. I can just tell you that it's not the easiest
way in the world to do that, and that a couple of extra months is not
going to harm them, if their lawyer was unable to come up with any
reason, in his discussion with me, how they would be harmed. Nor was
Mr. Pinto able to come up with any reasons in his discussion with Mr.
.Uartman, how the County would be harmed, and it just seemed to be _
emanating from Commissioner Scurlock, and it seemed like something that
ought to be raised to the level of the County Commission, so that we
could air this, because it's just one point in an agreement. It's
something that they could give in on, that could help make this
agreement work smoothly, for the benefit of the citizens of the City,
who are also supposed to be County citizens. It seems like a point
that could be resolved without harm to the County.
(34) Councilman Holyk: I understand.
(35) Attorney Cloud: I'm gonna yield to the vice .mayor for one
question, at his request.
(36) Councilman Oberbeck: You brought up the subject that I had
written down, and neglected to read off.
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(37) Councilman Oberbeck: Will we have adequate paper by then? The
information that we're waiting to be afforded from the County? If
they're talking January...
(38) Attorney Cloud: We're still waiting for the exhibits._- The
exhibits are supposed to have the components for the rates, and we've
been waiting for them since April; well, I'm sure they're working on
them and that will happen in due course (however long that means).
(39)Councilman Holyk: I guess that should be amplified just a little
bit, Mr. Cloud, whatever that means, due course? It's interesting how
lt'S esterda and Wnen- 1L COIQCS a.0 wac ♦.v waA. �.. .. -- ---- ----
now. That's interesting due course. The other question I wanted to
touch on --help me and make sure that I understood correctly --we're
talking about flow diversion type meters with respect to sewage, and
that this was one of the points on which the County was saying that the
City should be kinda in charge of picking that up and making sure
...did I understand that correctly?
(40) Attorney Cloud: Yes sir.
(41) Councilman Holyk: Okay. The other half of my question then is,
you started to refer to the conversation that Mr. Hartman just finished
prior to the meeting, and the conversation was with Mr. Pinto,
apparently there is agreement at least on Mr. Pinto's part that that
could be deferred; it was not absolutely necessary. I mean, if there
was a section that didn't require a specific year now, that that could
be deferred... I'm sorry, please help me understand; I'm a little bit
confused, Jerry.
(42) Mr. Hartman: For the record, on the meter issues, my discussion
with Terry Pinto tonight: if it's a force main system tying in just a
ew more cus omers,, there's no need for a meter at this time. If
there's a large subdivision that comes into sewer or major gravity
interceptor system program that's built for 500 units or some large
portion of the City, even if you may only have one or two customers
coming into that large gravity system, once that gravity system is tied
into the County pump station, they want the meter on the County pump
station due to potential infiltration problems in
that gravity system. Now, initially, we would not build a flow
diversion facility because the force main system would have more than
adequate capacity. That would be a more future metering system that
you would do. So, yes, we believe we can work these things out on the
metering issues. I think what we need to do also is gather the sources
and uses on the cost and budget aspects. I concur with the Mayor's
statement that you've got to know all the costs, and we are doing that
with them, trying to get all the costs. We don't have them tied down
for you because they haven't been provided yet.
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(43) As soon as they're provided, we will provide them to you so you
will know the revenues and expenses, what types of charges are
applicable to the City, what are not, which charges- we hand to our
customers, what they will be billed for and won't be billed for...a
very important part of this is that once you do have the control of
this system, then we can sit down with the business community and work
out how, in the commercial areas and industrial areas and homeowner
groups, they'll be accommodated with their engineers in the most
cost-effective manner. Not to dictate necessarily the specific programs
to them, but working together in this community, making our own
decisions for both blocks of services.
(44) Councilman Holyk: While you're both standing, let me just ask
this one question, because you can probably either one or both speak to
this. In any of your discussions, has any, person among County
personnels from the County Commissioners on down, given us a reason why
they have not acquiesced to our Questions about the rate structures and
put that into an exhibit, after all these months of asking? Have they
given us a reason? I didn't ask for a good reason; a reason.
(45) Mr. Hartman: Yes. They said that they haven't had a rate
consultant look at that yet, and that the staff hasn't had time to get
to it either.
(46) Councilman Holyk: What kind of effort would that require? Can I
have some idea? I mean, is this like 300 man-hours of work, or is
this...
(47) Mr. Hartman: Typically, the financial analysts for the Utilities
Department should be able to pull this together.
(48) Councilman Holyk: I understand. Thank you. I appreciate that.
(49)Mayor Conyers: I want to make note there: you're talking about
these rate schedules. It seems like all the discussion's been done and
we should have known this before; we've spent all this money so far.
That's one of my biggest gripes about this whole deal. We're gonna get
so far down the road and have so much money into it, then you're gonna
find out how much it's really gonna cost us. You should know this up
front.
(50) Councilman Holyk: Mr. Mayor, 1 agree with you, and I Lhi,ik that
perhaps we should send the bill to the County for what we're gonna have
to pay to get the answers to those questions.
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(51) Councilman Holyk: I have one other question that I wanted to ask.
In terms of Park Place, we heard two statements at this point. One
statement was from the mayor, and that was that the residents of Park
Place would be happy to know that they were being excluded; we're going
to comment on that in just a minute. The other question, or the other
statement, regarding that was that we did not want to make the
residents of Park Place a "stepchild of the community." Can we look at
that in terms of how does that whole issue tie into the water and sewer
that we're talking about with the' County?
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(52) Attorney Cloud: I'd be glad to answer that because I would like
to get some direction from the Council on this tonight...I feel it's
necessary. I think it's an important point and I hope you'll recognize
in the letter that I sent to the County, I did not say. the City would
not take Park Place. That is 'a mischaracterization. What I said was
that, based upon the lack of data that we got from theCountv (they
didn'ty aet -any of the exhibits to it), I felt that I was not in a
position to recommend to you that you step in and rescind an agreement
that you have not even gotten everything dealing with the agreement.
Indeed, I found out tonight that apparently the County is not pressing
that point. But in the original draft agreement that we got from the
County, the County asked us to assume their agreement that they
negotiated with Mr. Nelson Hyatt, and take over that system. And the
only reason that we deleted that from the agreement is that the
agreement they attached to their draft was incomplete, there appeared
to be some possibility of some liability there we were uncertain of.
If there are no hidden liabilities in the rest of the agreement that we
didn't receive, or any other side deals that may be floating out there
that we, don't have a copy of, that just wasn't sent, that deal works
like this: Mr. Hyatt sold the sgystem for $775,000,00, Now that c s the
(53) Now, they didn't pay $775,000.00 on Day one. There's no clause in
the agreement that says they pay this money over to the owner of the
system. Why is that? Because they couldn't have afforded to. That
system wouldn't support $775,000.00._ How did the owner get it back? I
submit to you that he gett n paid back off the 13 of the
customers in a way a we can't break. That's the sad truth of that
deal. Whether the City owns it or the County owns it, the deal is what
it is, and we can't change it.
(54) Here's how he got paid. First of all, he got a break on the
impact fees, and it's a break that puts every owner of a unit in that
�omplex at a competitive disadvantage with the developer. Why is that?
Because he got an exemption from having to pay impact fees for five
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years, so he can sell out all his units. Oh,
's no way the City can break that deal. I want you to
that.
(55) The second part of the deal is, they have a $10.00 surcharge
that's been put on their rates, and that $10.00 surcharge lasts for ten
years._ And -there -:aren't a whole lot of units in there. Now, I frankly
don't know what the chances are of Mr. Hyatt ever realizing
$775,000.00, based on what I've seen today,gven if you take all the
.tap fees from that area and all the $10.00 surcharges. But you can't
take that $10.00 surcharge off. It stays on there because it went with
the purchase and sale of the system. We can't get rid of it. It's
legally impossible without incurring massive sums of liability for the
City.
(56) The third deal was the land upon which the plants sat, which
arguably was where the value of the assets came from, because the
plants that were out there really weren't all that great. I guess the
water plant's still providing water there..
(57) So the water plant's still out there, but the area that the sewer
plant sat on, that land, if the County doesn't use it, goes to the
developer. So he gets that land back and presumably, he can turn
around and sell that land. So maybe with a combination of all those
things, he does get $775,000.00. T e reality o a ea is, even i
the City takes it
over, even i you take it over and bring them into
the fold, there's nothing we can do for them because of the deal the
County's struck. They've basically acquired that system on the backs
^of the customers,_ and that's not an uncommon deal, and they're not
insisting that we take it over, but if you feel, if the City feels,
that we want to take it over, I don't think they'll object. I don't
think they care that much.
(58) They originally requested that we do take it over, and if it's
vo,lr desire that we take it over, I would want you understand and go in
with open eyes, there's not anything we can do in terms of changing
that rate structure or the way the impact fees work. It's not a great
deal. It's certainly not a good deal for the customers out there. One
wonders what kind of deal would have been struck for the GDU system
under that scenario. I don't know. But I do know that if we do agree
to take on that system, that we ought to at least get the rest of the
documentation.
_who^ le city,
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,•MAk ,..,
is it a small development? We've been told it's just that development,
but I don't know. I aven't seen the documents. Was there a side
deal, that said he got $300,000.00 out of their whatever? I don't
know. Before I think I could recommend to you all that we take it
over, Iwant to have due diligence done and have a statement from the
County that t ere were no hidden facts that we didn't know about. I
we could do that, if we could cover ourselves in that respect, then I'm
not sure that it hurts the City, but I do want you to understand that
there's nothing you can do for those customers. You can't drop their
rates. That $10.00 surcharge was put on there by the County in that
contract.
(60) Councilman Holyk: I would hope that the residents of Park Place
who may or may not understand the true nature of the deal would a
least borrow this tape or et a written.transcript of it, because then
they might understand. It certa n y makes sense. appreciate that
explanation. Thank you. I think that's all I have at this time.
(61) Councilman Reid: If anybody was listening, I think they just
heard a real good reason why Sebastian ought to be in its own utility
business. There's an example of just exactly the kind of a deal the
County can strike, and I just don't think that we need anymore of that
kind of foolishness. When Sebastian first entertained the thought of
going into its own utility system, Mr. Scurlock and some other people
were quoted in the newspaper as having said, "If you want -it, you've
got it. You can have it this way, or you can have it that way. You
just tell us what you want, and you've got it." It was in your
newspaper. Sat right there during the meeting with us and said exactly
the same thing. "If you want it, hey, you've got it."
(62) Well, surprise, surprise! Sebastian took him up on it. And now
what does he do,' you know? Now he doesn't want to deliver. All we've
had is just a bunch of roadblocks, a bunch of reasons why, "Well, I
really didn't mean that sort of thing." Okay. My problem is, where in
the world is the rest of the County Commission. Since when is the
County of Indian River bein run b one man? Anymore than this Council
Sou a run y one man. I think it's time that the dealings between
this City and the County Commission be brought before the entire
Commission. I think that this is not the time for us to continue to
deal with one or two people, either on the County staff, or one of the
.County Commissioners.
(63) Now, I'm shocked, really, at the lack of representation that we
have had from our elected County officials. Not just on this item, but
on some other items. Like Twin Peaks.
(64) Comment from the floor: Twin Pairs, please!
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(65) Councilman Reid: Okay. You know, where is our representation?
Who is speaking for us? All we get is: Open your mouth, clunk, and
down your throat it goes. Okay? This has happened on several deals
now, and we're getting the same kind of soft-shoe dance on this item,
and I think it's about time that this Council got together with the
County Commission eyeball -to -eyeball and said, "Look, what's the deal,
boys and girls? Where are you on this thing? Did you agree that one
of your Commissioners should be dictating the policies of the entire
Indian River County insofar as Sebastian getting into the water and
sewer system?"
(66) I think it's high time we did that, and'I would strongly recommend
that this Council go on record of asking for a meeting eyeball to
eyeball with the whole County Commission, and get this thing
straightened out once and for all. I don't think we should go into
this thing on an adversarial position. I think we should go into this
thing wide open, and I think the County Commission should have enough
sense to do the same thing, because this is not going to do the County
Commission any more good than it's doing us, and I think they should
know what's happening.. If they don't know what's happening, then we
should make them aware of it. If they do know what's happening, then
we should ask for a reason why.
(67) Councilman Holyk: Did you have any other questions for -Mr. Cloud?
(68) Councilman Reid: I don't have any more questions for him, and I'm
sorry I kept you up there while I had to get fat off of my chest.
(69) Mayor Conyers: I would like to say something just for the record,
and let's be fair, Mr. Reid. The City of Sebastian City Council asked
the County to come in here and do this sewer thing. They asked the
County to come in here and do the Twin Pairs deal. Public hearings
were set; people heard about this. Previous Council, by unanimous
vote, voted for this, and the only problem we've had with it so far, is
that this Council doesn't want it! And because this Council doesn't
want it, it's gonna cost us a duplication of things that have already
been done, more money's gonna be spent, and I think fair is fair. This
whole thing came about because the City of Sebastian asked for it!!!
Let's get that clear. I live here, I pay taxes here, but I believe in
fair. What's fair is fair, and what's right is right. And I don't
believe that it's been SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS! Because, how coulo
something be shoved down our throats when we told them to come in here
and do it in the first place?
(70) Mr. Cloud, do you have anything else?
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(71) Attorney Cloud: I wanted to try and answer some of the questions,
and I assume they were questions and not just statements in the
abstract. One dealt with Park Place. I think we've answered that one.
With the financing, it's very common to finance these agreements with
revenue bonds; there also are some grants available we think we can
qualify for. Number Three: there's a lot of misconceptions about
mandatory connection. You know, when I first started practicing law, I
did (?) mandatory connections, so I happen to know quite a bit about
it, including the fact that there's no case in the United States that
says you can enforce mandatory water system connection on existing
homes.
(72) I can tell -you this. Right now, if the County says, •"Jump,
mandatorily connect these people out here," you can't do a thing about
mit. You're stuck. But with an agreement that allows you to be the
retailer, you can do something about it. You can make a decision if
the people say they don't want it, not to build the pipe. if you don't
build the pipe, there's no mandatory connection. That's the law in
Florida. I think that answers that question.
(73) With respect to Mr. Little, Mr. Hartman was asked to contact Mr.
Little. I believe Mr. Hartman can address in great detail the
discussions he's had with Mr. Little. If you're interested in hearing.
(74) Councilman Oberbeck: Before Mr. Hartman gets to Mr. Little, could
I just address something on this mandatory connection?
(75) Attorney Cloud: Yes sir.
(76) Councilman Oberbeck: Okay. The Mayor commented that the County
has stated, or will grant the practice, of nonmandatory connection. I
would defy anyone to go to the County and apply for a fence permit if a
sewer line is within a thousand feet of yourproperty, because the
first place you're sent is the Utilities Department, And if sewer's in
that neighborhood, you ain't getting a permit until you connect to the
sewer.
(77) Attorney Cloud: I agree with that. I have no problem with that
at all. That's not the mandatory connection I'm talking about.
(7u) rn„nr,;.lman Oberbeck: Well, that is mandatory. They've got you.
You ain't improving on your home.
(79) Mayor Conyers: If they've got a sewer plant out there by your
house, then sure. I'm saying that there's no way we can operate this
City without having a mandatory connection. Your definition of
mandatory lacks a lot as far as I'm concerned, because mandatory means,
"mandatory, you will do."
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� AM%
(80) Councilman Oberbeck: Mr. Cloud, I'm just stating that I don't
object to a mandatory connection, because it's beneficial to the entire
community, and that's what we have to look out for. .That's what we're
elected to represent. Now if we can do a mandatory connection with a
federal grant from HUD, Farmer's Home, or whoever it might be, at 50%
of the cost that it's gonna cost me to do it through the County, then
I'm definitely in favor of it.
(81) Mayor Conyers: All these people who reserved capacity are
hollering now because they're getting charged and they're not using
their capacity. Wait till they get their lots down here and have to
pay on an empty lot. Then, Mr. Mayor or Mr. Vice Mayor, let's see what
you tell them!
(82) Councilman Oberbeck: Well, I own vacant lots, too, Mr. Mayor, and
I can't wait until... (garbled speech)
(83) Mr. Hartman: ...t hose people who reserved capacity, the situation
richt now is, they only paid for 20% of the cost. Another 80% will be
(84) Mayor Conyers: They reserved that capacity. My point is, these
people are complaining they're not hooked up, and they're being
charged. And these people will complain about that when the City comes
in and makes every lot in this City divided, whether you have anything
on it ... whatever you're doing, you're gonna be paying for this. Each
separate lot.
(85) Now don't shake your heads at me, because you have not come up yet
with an idea how we're gonna pay for this whole system. You've talked
about maybe we might be able to get some bond money. I have a hard
time finding that to even be a viable solution, because I think that
when it gets down to us looking for bond money, with what we have to
work out of them (?) I have another problem.
(86) Mr. Hartman: Thank you.. I didn't mean to be argumentative at
all. All I'm trying to do is advise you. You were asked if we did
meet with Mr. Little; we did, and it was a very good meeting, about
three hours. He's a fine person, a quality person, and I think that
when you talk to him you'll see that he had an excellent meeting with
::s. and we're aoin4 to continue our discussions because we have a few
more points to talk about, and I'd rather reserve any staff's.report of
this until that time. He will then follow up and finish the report; he
is doing so, and I think he was enlightened quite a bit about the
situation because he talked to you both. The County and us at the same
time.
(87) Councilman Oberbeck: When you get done talking to him, I've got a
fellow I met in Germany you can talk to, too. Maybe he can enlighten
US.
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(88) Mayor Conyers: That's the kind of thinking we have up here.
(89) Councilman Oberbeck: Mr. Mayor, I think for myself. I didn't
need Mr. Little to pay for me. In fact, I may be furnishing this
Council with some documents with regard to Mr. Little's background.
(90) Mayor Conyers: I don't have any problem with anybody standing up
here and telling something about this system, because all we've heard
so far is, "We may be able to do this, we might be able to do this";
we've already thrown out $40,000.00.
(91) Councilman Oberbeck: We can stand back and let somebody else do
it all for us, and we can pay them.
(92) Attorney Cloud: If I. could, the.one thing that I did want some
direction from you all on was on Park Place, because I think that's.
really in your hands. That could go either way.
(93) Councilman Oberbeck: Well, Mr. Cloud, I stated my position. I
just feel that those people ... we do represent those people... they are
part of our community, and I'm not in favor of giving away the farm. I
know Park Place could be a little detriment to us, but the fact is that
those people that come before us have stated that they wouldn't care if
they even had to pay a couple of dollars more, rather than be
controlled by the County. That was the position . of the
representatives; I_believe it was Mr. Pitiak who stood before this
Council last year, or earlier in the year.
(94) Attorney Cloud: so, your position would be, if I may take the
liberty. of stating it, that assuming we can get the necessary
assurances of what the liabilities are, you'd be in favor of including
it in the agreement.
(95) Councilman Oberbeck: Yes sir.
(96) Mayor Conyers: if this City Council wants to do something for
them, let's drop the franchise fee and the utility tax. That ought to
help out a little.
(97) Councilman Holyk: How are you going to drop it? You just said
it's 9.11enel.. Is that riaht? ,We can't drop the franchise fees, even
if we take them over.
(98) Attorney Cloud: Well, are they paying a franchise fee now?
They're County. I guess the County's paying a franchise fee. But if
we take them over, they're gonna pay a franchise fee... they'll be your
customers.
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n
(99) Mayor Conyers: I would assume that you would know this
information.
(100) Attorney Cloud: I just told you!
(101)Mayor Conyers: You don't know who has the franchise .fee ... the
County or the City.
(102) At
Do either of the rest of you have a feeling about Park Place? I would
like to...
— (103) Councilman Reid: I don't want to make a decision on that until
you get all the information that we need to make a logical decision.
This business of shooting from the hip and saying, "Oh, hey, let's do
something for those people!" Well, we have to find out what we can do
for them and what kind of liability we're going to assume for the rest
of the City of Sebastian. So until we get the information, I'm not
going to make any kind of decision to tell you either yes or no.
(104) Mayor Conyers: Absolutely. I agree with that 100 percent.
That's what I've always hollered for. Get all the information.
(105) Councilman Oberbeck: If I may, George, part of my statement was
to do it. If he had to pursue it, pursue it in the best interest of
the community. Now, they (?) gave away the farm. I would hope that
they would come back and afford us the rest of the information when he
can acquire it.
(106) Attorney Cloud: I'll request the rest of the information...
(107) Councilman Reid: If you're successful in getting it from the
County, lots of luck.
(108) Councilman Oberbeck: ...but I don't want to leave them out of
the overall program.
(109) Councilman Holyk: No, I agree that they're citizens, and we
don't want to leave anybody out of any program. Obviously, they're
under a different franchise agreement is what I understand, from where
it stands right now.
(110) Attorney Cloud: Well, they're covered by a Purchase and Sale
Agreement that defines their rights.
(111) Councilman Holyk: Jerry, you had something to add to that.
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(112) Mr. Hartman: We are requesting your permission to go out to the
business community and other people who have asked for us to talk to
them, and discuss the sewer programs and the interception of the
preliminary design; type of a very conceptual design,
prepared in the City and for the City, and those types of things.
Looking at sewer combinations and when we're going to have a couple of
meetings with those people.
(113) Councilman Holyk: As far as I'm concerned, no, not only am I not
opposed to it, I urge you to do that. That's my opinion. I can't
speak for the whole Council, but that's my opinion.
(114) Councilman Reid: Who's gonna pay for the time? Are we gonna pay
for that time?
(115) Councilman Oberbeck: sof course you're gonna pay for it.
Community service, George.
(116) Mayor Conyers: They're not gonna do it for nothing, I can tell
you that.
(117) Councilman Reid: I just want to make sure that somebody who
comes later and says, "Look at all the money we spent!" I think -it's
money well spent...
(118) Councilman Holyk: You're still doing it for the community...
(119) Councilman Reid: The community needs a lot more information, and
if you can give that to them, great, but I just want everybody to know.
(120) Councilman Oberbeck: To protect everyone concerned, will this be
a published type meeting? Would you meet here one night with the local
Chamber of Commerce, or how are you gonna...I don't want to give you, I
like you guys, but...
(121) Councilman Holyk: Yeah.. Carte blanche is not part of the deal
here.
(122) Mr. Hartman: To my knowledge, there have only been two groups
that have contacted us that wanted...
(123) Councilman Oberbeck: Who were the two groups?
(124) Mr. Hartman: One was Clay Price's group.
(125) Councilman Oberbeck: Forget about that one, who's the other one?
(Laughter) Talk about somebody interesting.
IM
(126) Mr. Hartman: The Park Place group...
(127) Councilman Oberbeck: Could we not let them come -in here, and you
guys have a meeting right here or at our community center one night, so
we don't go broke? I mean, a community meeting ... one night!
(128) Mr. Hartman: If there's too many people, it would be very
difficult to accomplish a lot and...
(129) Councilman Holyk: 'But by the same token, it may also answer
questions that you wouldn't have to repeat, so that there is validity
of doing that. I think if it gets out of hand, and that becomes
obvious where you have people standing on Main Street waiting to get up
here and speak, I think it's obvious that that's not gonna work, .then
you can begin to consolidate people a little bit by a specific
spokesman for a larger group of people, but still it may not be unwise
to at least try that.
(130) Councilman Oberbeck: Pete, was it not effective the night we
opened up the community center and had the County up to answer
questions to the public? Will you do the same thing here? That's big
enough to accommodate both groups with no problem. Just schedule a
meeting one night and that's it, and we'll pay once.
(WSEBMTG.CEW):cew
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