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HomeMy WebLinkAbout08151990 PZ^ ^ ° . ' ^ /�m� ^4m�. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 VICE CHAIRMAN WADGWORTH CALLED THE MEETING TO ORDER PRESENT; MRS. O`CONNOR, MR. MAHONEY, MR. WADSWORTH, MRS. KILKB-LY, MR. THOMPSON, MR. SHROYER, ALTERNATE ABSENT; MR. LINDSEY, MR. FULLERTON, MR. KRULIKOWGKI, ALL EXCUSED ALSO PRESENT; RICK TORPY, ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY, LINDA KINCHEN, SECRETARY ANNOUNCEMENTS; NONE VICE CHAIRMAN WADGWORTH TURNS THE MEETING OVER TO THE , ATTORNEY FIRST. THE FOLLOWING DISCUSSION WILL BE VERBATIM FROM THE TAPE. TO MAKE IT REAL CLEAR THE INTENT, THIS CAME UP JUST AS REALLY A CONVERSATION I HAD AT I THINK THE FIRST MEETING I ATTENDED WITH MR. WADGWORTH AND A COUPLE OTHERS. WHAT HAPPENS WITH YOUR CODE BOOKS. FIRST OF ALL YOU ALL ARE WELL AWARE I KNOW BY NOW, YOU HAVE TWO DIFFERENT CODES AND IF I GAY ANYTHING TONIGHT WHICH SEEMS TO INSULT ANYBODY OR GO BENEATH WHAT YOU ALREADY KNOW, I'M JUST TRYING TO GO OVER THE BASICS HERE AND WALK YOU THROUGH THE CODE BECAUSE AS BOARD MEMBERS, WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT FOR YOU ALL TO BE ABLE WHEN A QUESTION, YOU'LL GET YOUR AGENDA IT WOULD BE NICE IF YOU ALL CAN GO THROUGH THE CODE AND COME UP WITH YOUR OWN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS. I KNOW TOMMIE DOES THIS ALL THE TIME, HE IS ROUTINELY WRONG ON HIS ANSWERS BUT HE DOES IT ALL THE TIME ANYWAY. NO REALLY, AND THAT'S WHAT THE WHOLE POINT OF TONIGHT IG TO WALK YOU THROUGH THE IMPORTANT FEATURES BECAUSE REALLY IT IS KIND OF LIKE A MINI LAW SCHOOL LESSON - READING A CODE IS A LOT DIFFERENT THEN READING ANYTHING ELSE AND READING A STATUTE IS THE SAME WAY. tlo*A COUPLE OF BASIC PREMISES- ONE, I THINK AS WE DEMONSTRATED � DURING THAT ONE MEETING, EVERY WORD IN A CODE YOU HAVE TO ASSUME HAS A SPECIFIC MEANING. YOU MUST ASSUME THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A STRUCTURE AND A BUILDING. IF YOU SEE A CODE AS YOU'LL SEE IN HERE, AS WE SAW IN ONE OF OUR MEETINGS WHERE THEY USED THE WORD STRUCTURE IN ONE PARAGRAPH AND THEY USED THE WORD BUILDING IN ANOTHER PARAGRAPH THAT IS NOT ACCIDENTAL. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE TWO THERE IS A SPECIFIC REASON THEY HAVE DONE THAT AND WHAT YOU HAVE A TENDENCY TO DO IS READ THAT. IF THOSE OF YOU WHO WERE HERE, REMEMBER, WE WERE TAKING ABOUT THE PAWN SHOP AND THE QUESTION CAME UP, YOU KNOW, ONE THING ALLOWS A FENCE AND ONE DOESN'T ALLOW A FENCE, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE HERE AND I IMMEDIATELY WENT AND SAID WELL WAIT A MINUTE ONE GAYS STRUCTURE AND ONE SAYS BUILDING WHATS THE DIFFERENCE. LETS TAKE A LOOK AND WENT TO THE DEFINITIONS AND FOUND OUT THERE WAS A SPECIFIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TERMS. AS FAR AS GALES, THEY COULD TAKE PLACE IN A BUILDING THAT WAS DEFINED AS HAVING A ROOF, A STRUCTURE WASN'T DEFINED AS HAVING A ROOF WHICH MEANT THE FENCE IN THE BACK. GO THERE ARE VERY SPECIFIC THINGS AND THATS THE MOST BASIC THING ABOUT READING ORDINANCES THAT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, IS THAT WHEN YOUR READING THROUGH SOMETHING, DON'T ASSUME A MEANING. ALWAYS AND WE ARE GOING TO LOOK AT INDEXES IN A MOMENT, BUT ALWAYS _ ASSUME THAT THERE IS A SPECIFIC REASON IT IS WRITTEN. NOW THAT YOU HAVE THE RULE, NOW LET ME GIVE YOU THE EXCEPTION. IF YOU GO TO THE GLOSSARIES OR THE INDEXES OR THE DEFINITIONAL SECTION AS WE WILL LOOK AT IN A FEW MOMENTS AND IT IS NOT THERE, THEN DON'T TRY TO READ SOMETHING IN THERE THAT IS NOT THERE EITHER. THIS IS HOW LAWYERS MAKE THEIR MONEY, LAWYERS MAKE THEIR MONEY BY TAKING A VERY SEEMINGLY SIMPLE STATUTE THATS ON THE BOOKS THAT SAYS " A BLACK CAR CAN'T RIDE ON THE STREET" WELL EVERYBODY WOULD READ THAT AND SAY IF YOU HAVE A BLACK CAR YOU CAN'T RIDE ON THE STREET. WELL A LAWYER TAKES THAT AND SAYS WELL, WHAT COLOR BLACK. AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY RIDE, WELL IS A STREET DIFFERENT THEN A ROAD OR IS THAT THE SAME THING AS A THOROUGHFARE. SO LAWYERS PLAY THE GAMES WITH WORDS AND THATS JUST BEING REAL CANDID AND THATS WHAT WE GET PAID TO DO. ITS TO GO INTO COURT AND TAKE WORDS AND TO TRY TO IF THERE IS A QUESTION OF I WANT IT TO BE INTERPRETED ONE WAY AND THE OTHER GUY WANTS IT TO BE INTERPRETED THE OTHER WAY, MY JOB IS TO CONVINCE THE JUDGE MY WAY IS RIGHT. YOU AS BOARD MEMBERS SHOULDN'T DO THAT YOU NEED TO TAKE IT AT FACE VALUE. THATS WHAT I DO WHEN I TRY TO GIVE INTERPRETATIONS TO THE BOARD. SO IF THERE IS A WORD THERE THAT YOUR NOT SURE OF THE MEANING IF ITS NOT DEFINED IN THE GLOSSARIES, INDEXES OR DEFINITIONAL SECTIONS TAKE IT FOR ITS COMMON MEANING, DON'T SIT THERE AND TRY TO PUT KIND OF SOME MEANING TO IT THATS UNUSUAL OR OFF THE WALL. DON'T TRY TO TAKE BLACK AND SAY BLACK IS GREY. BLACK IS BLACK. THOSE ARE THE TWO BASIC PREMISES OF CODE INTERPRETATIONS NOW WE ARE GOING TO GET INTO SOME SPECIFICS. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE THRE:E THE SECTIONS OF' YOUR CODE., I KNOW YOIJ HAVE'.:. ALL SEEN AND I KNOW YOU HAVE ALL LOOK THROUGH AND READ ]'HIS 'THING, A COUPLE THINGS '[HAT I WANT TO SHOW YOU THAT I THINK ARE IMF'ORTAN"r. FIRST OF ALL IN YOUR LAND DE:VELOPMENT CODE YOU HAVE A STATUTORY REFERENCE TABLE NOW THATS REAL I MPOR. TANT BECAUSE A LOT OF Y[]UR CODES, WE'LL BACK LIP ONE THING, A CODE AS ANY CODE: WITHIN A CI'I'Y IS EFFECTIVE WITHIN THAT CITY NO F'ROBLEM BUT IF 'I"HERE IS A STATE STATUTE THAT ADDRESSES THAT SAME ISSUE THERE MAY BE ONE OR TWO PROBLEMS. ONE THE STATUTE ITSELF MAY F'REEMF'T THAT ENTIRE AREA OF LAW.. WHICH MEANS TNAT TFIE STA]"E MAY HAVE: COME IN, ADOPTED A LAW AND SAID THIS IS OUR EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO PROMULGATE THE RULE AND REGULATIONS IN THIS AREA. AND IF THIA'TS THE CASE~ THEN YOU MAY HAVE A CODE ON THE BOOKS, AND IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE, VIRTUALLY EVERY CITY AND TOWN DOES, YOU MAY HAVE A CODE IN HERE THAT IS AN OLD ONE 'I'HAT WAS ADOF'TED BEFORE THE STATE CAME UF' AND MADE A LAW BUT NOW THAT CODE iS UNENFOR. CEABLE. THE SECOND THING YOU MAY RUN UF' TO IS THAT THE STATUTE MAY EXIST ALTHOUGH IT DOESN'T' PREEMPT THE ENTIRE AREA BUT WHAT IT DOES IS SET DOWN F'ARAMETERS. YOU CANNOT ADOPT AN ORDINANCE THAT WOULD ALLOW MORE THAN A STATUTE ALL[]WS FOR EXAMPLE ON A STATE RI]AD, IF' THE LAW OR STA"I'UTE SAYS THE SPEED LIMIT ON A STATE ROAD IS 55 MF'H AND YOU HAVE A STA"I'E ROAD GOING THROUGH THE CITY OF SEBASTIAN YOU COULD NOT ADOP'F AN ORDINANCE MAKING THE SPEED L. IMIT 65 MF'H. YOU COULD NOT ADOPT AN ORDINANCE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO GO FURTHER THEN THE STATUTE DOES AND THATS WHY YOU HIAVE THESE STATUTORY REFERE:NCE TABLES~ CAUSE THESE ORDINANCES HERE YOU'LL_ SEE SECTION 20A5.6 FLA STATUTE 163 'I'HESE ARE CROSS REFERENCES AND THESE STATUTES EACH DEAl_ WiTH THE SAME AREA OF THE []ODE, AF'F'AREN]"i...Y WHAT HAS HiAF'F'ENED HERE IS THAT T'HESE SECTIONS OF' THE CODE WER. E ADOPTED IN CONFORMANCE W ITHI THE STATUTE. THATS WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED. YOU~VE TAKEN A STATUTE, A STA]"UTE WOULD BE PROMULGATED AND IN ORDER TO F'OLLOW iT OR DO WHAT THE STATUTE SAYS THE LAND DEVEL[]PMENT CODE HAS AN ORDINANCE THAT EITHER. FURTHER EXPANDS IT OR FURTHER DEFINES IT. SOMETIMES YOU'LL GET A STATE STATUTE THAT PUTS A BORDEN ON THiE CiTY TO DO SOMETHING. LAND DEVELOPMEN'[ CODES, WE:' R.E ALI_ FULL. Y AWARE ABOUT LAND DEVELOPMENT CODES WELL. THERE IS A ST'ATE STAT'LiTE THAT REDUIRES THE ADOPTION OF' I...AND DEVELOF'MENT CODES SO WHAT YOU SEE IS A SI'Al'UTE REFERRED WHICH IS THE STATU'i"E WI.-IICH REqUiRES A LAND DEVELOPMEN'F CODE AND THEN THEY:'D REFERENCE ]"HE CODE OF ]'HE SECTION. SHDRT HINT HERE, LETS SAY THAT SOMEBODY HAS A STATUTE THIAT THEY ARE COMING IN AND COMPLAINING, A STATE STATUTE, I AM LDOKING AT THE STATUTDRY REFERENCE TABLE RI GH'F NOW WHICH IS ON PAGE 1563 IN THE CODE. LETS SAY SOMEONE CAME IN OR Y(]U GLJYS HAD A DUESTION, YOU FOUND A STATUTE OR SOMEONE SAID SOMETHIING TO YOU ABOUT A STA'I'E STATUTE WHIA]' DO WE DO ABOUT "I"HIS, DO WE HAVE ANY RULES ABOUT THIS. WELl .... VERY SIMPLY YOU 'FAKE OUT YOUR PL. ANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOF' MEETING ~" 1990 PAGE FOUR AUGUST 1,..~, LAND DEVELOPMENT []ODE OR YOUR CODE OF ORDINANCES AND YOU LOOK A'T' ]"HEM AND YOU SEE FL. OF.:IDA STATUTE LETS SAY IT HAPPENS TO BE SECTION 163 WELL YOU LOOK AT' CHAF'TER 16.]; Wi-.IICH IS THE FIRST NO'rE IN HER. E AND THEN I"f' GIVES YOU THE SECTIONS OF THE CODE THAT SOMEHOW ARE RELEVANT TO CI..-IAPTEF.: 165. Y[]UR ANSWEF.: TO THAT I:.':'EF.:SON OR YOUR ANSWEF.: 'f'O YOURSEL. F IS YES ABSOL. UTELY AND YOU CAN SIMPLY NOW GO THROUGH ALL '.THOSE SECTIONS OF' '.THE CODE KNOWING THAT, 'T'HAT"S WHAT R. EF'ERS TO Ct.-.IAP"f'ER '1.63. ANOTHEF.: WAY, ANO]'HER SECTION, SO THATS WHAT YOUF.: S"I'A'TU"I'OI:;]Y REFERENCE TABLE IS ABOUT, IT LETS YOU KNOW IT SHOULD BUT OF.'.DINANCES HAVE 'TO BE UPDATED FROM TIME TO TIME, BUT II' WILL LET YOU KNOW THE; SECTIONS OF YOUF.: CODE THAT ARE DOVETAILED OR SOMEHOW DEF'ENDENT UPON STA"FIF STATUTES AND IF' YOU ARE TRYING TO RESEAR. CH SOMETHING YOU RE;AD JUST THE SECTION OF THE CODE; WITHOUT READING THE STATE STATUTE YOUF.: RESEARCH IS INCOMPL. E]',E OR MISSING SOME"i'HING AND YOU NEED TO F.:EAD BOTH -FO GET A COMPI...E'T'E OPINION OR TO FORMULATE YOUR OWN OPINION AND YOU WILL, F-:EAD THEM ANI) MANY TIMES AL.L iT IS, IS AN ENABLING STATUTE; WHICH AN ENABLING STATUTE IS ONE WI..-IiCH ALLOWS A CITY TO DO SOMETHING, YOU'RE ALL WELL AWARE THERE IS A NEW STATUTE NOW WHICH WAS JUST PASSED ON CONVENIENCE; STORES -.THAT PA-RT ICULAR S]'A'i"t...I"I"E RE[;)UIRES CITIES AND TOWNS TO ADOPT (;]RI:)INANCES SO IN THAT SI'I"UATIOr,..I EVE;NTUALL. Y WHAT YOU WILL SEE~ THERE IS AL. RE;qDY AN 0F.:DiNANCE IN THE CITY OF' SE]E~AS't-IAN BUT I't' WII...L. HAVE ]'0 BE AMENDED I1"4 AI._L I_IKEL. IHOO't'), YOU WILL SEE THAT ORDINANCE THAT SECTION NUMBEF.: IN THE; STA'rU]"ORY REFERENCE SECTION AND I"1" WILL F.:EFER BACK TO THE S]"ATE STATU]'E THAT RE(DLJIRES I"r. Sc) Tt-.IATS WHAT YOUR REFE;f.;:ENCE: TABL. E; ARE Al,ID ]'HERE ARE; VERY IMPORTANT CAUSE THEY ARE 6~UICK. ']'HEY 14ELF' YOU GO THROUGH THINGS AND FIND THINGS (;~UICKL. Y IF' YOU KNOW YOLJR LOOKING FOR SOME'.THING '.THATS RELATED ']"0 THE STATE S.TATLJTES. YOUR NEXT TABLE IN HERE IS YOt..Ii:~: CODE COMF'ARATIVE TABLE. NOW "1"1.-IIS ONE IS STILt... ;I:MF'ORTAN.T BUT IT IS OF LESS IMF'OF.:TANCE. WHAT THIS REALL. Y DOES IS TAKE."S THE OF.:DiIqANCES THAT Ar)oP"rED SECTIONS OF.'-THE CODE AND IT GIVES YOU THE ORDINANCE NLJMBEF.: CAUSE YOUR CODE WON:'T HAVE:'] THE ORDINANCES, SOME'T'IMES IT WILL SOMETI. IdES IT WON' T. THIS SHOULD HAVE IT I..IS-rED BU'f' 'tHIS WILL TEL. L Y[)U THE ORDiI',,IANCE NUIdBER T[] [;Ri]SS REFERENCE. IN DOING YOUR RESEARCH I'F F'ROBABLY WILL NOT BE THAT S1;GNIFICANT TO YOU, I HARDLY EVER REI...Y ON IT. BU'f' THA'.TS SIMPLY WHAT Il' DOES, NOW BY I:::'AI~: '.THE MOST IMF'ORTANT SEC'.TI[)N OF YOUR CODE: IS YOUF.: INDEX. AND I HAVEN"'T F'IGURED OUT THIS MYS.TICAL THING YET BUT A LO'r OF PEOPLE SOMETIMES "t"HiNK I"1" IS CHEATING T[] LOOK AT THE INDEX. ITS REAL, L.Y WEIRD, ITS STRANGE, WELt .... YOU KN[]W~, GEE:, I SHOULD KNOW THIS !.30 THEY START GOING THR:OUC-]H THE:' F'AGES TRYING TO FIND SOMETHING THAT REL. A]'ES. WELL ITS NOT CHEATING ^ ^ ' PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE FIVE THATS WHY YOU HAVE AN INDEX, I, YOU'VE SEEN NOW IN DEALING WITH ME YOU ASK ME A QUESTION NINE OUT OF TEN TIMES I SAY WAIT A MINUTE AND LET ME FIND OUT, AND THE FIRST THING I DO IS PULL OUT THE INDEX AND THATS HOW I FIND IT. I DON'T HAVE ALL YOUR ORDINANCES MEMORIZED NOR DO I HAVE THE STAT TO SCHEME MEMORIZED. BUT I KNOW WHERE TO FIND THEM AND THATS WHAT MY JOB IS IF I DON'T KNOW THE LAW, I HAVE TO KNOW WHERE TO FIND IT. SO I KID WITH YOU I SAY LIKE A LOT OF LAWYERS WILL BG WHEN THEY DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER, I TRY NOT TO DO THAT I JUST SAY HEY, LET ME LOOK IT UP, ITS EASY TO LOOK UP. NOW THE SECTION, WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS INDEXES ARE DIFFICULT, I ONCE HAD A LAW PROFESSOR AND WE WENT THROUGH THIS AND HE SAID INDEXES ARE INCOMPLETE AND HE AND I ARGUED BACK AND FORTH ABOUT IT AND HE SAID OK I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU THIRTY SECOND AND HE GAVE ME A STATUTE TO FIND CAUSE HE INSISTED THAT HE HAD LOOKED FOR HOURS AND IT WASN`T THERE AND em"p) I FOUND IT WITHIN THE THIRTY SECONDS AND THIS WAS A LAW PROFESSOR. AND HE JUST KIND OF LOOKED AT ME AND DROPPED HIS TEETH. INDEXES ARE IMPORTANT BUT YOU DO HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO USE THEM. ITS NOT LIKE A STANDARD INDEX, YOU GOT TO THINK OF KEY WOODS. LETS SAY YOUR LOOKING UP FOR SOMETHING ABOUT - I DON'T KNOW, YOU GUYS THROW SOMETHING OUT. ANYTHING YOU WANT TO LOOK UP. BILL WHAT HAVE YOU GOT� MR. MAHONEY SAYS SOMETHING IN THE SUBDIVISION ORDINANCES REGARDING STREETLIGHTING. ALRIGHT SAYS RICK, LETS LOOK UP THERES THREE THINGS HE SAID THERE, SUBDIVISION, STREETLIGHTING, ORDINANCES - ORDINANCES IS TOO VAGUE YOU WANT TO TRY YOUR MOST SPECIFIC THING. WHAT WE REALLY WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IS STREET LIGHTS. IF YOU WENT TO SUBDIVISIONS, YOU MIGHT FIND A BIG SECTION ON SUBDIVISION BUT WHAT YOU REALLY WANT TO LOOK FOR IS STREETLIGHTS. NOW I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS ANYTHING IN HERE SPECIFICALLY ABOUT STREETLIGHTS. BUT THE EASIEST THING IS TO LOOK AT IT. WELL WE GOT STREETS AND SIDEWALKS LETS BACK UP, WE HAVE SETBACKS, SIGNS, IMPROVEMENTS, STREETLIGHTS, SON OF A GUN, SEE UNDER STREETS AND SIDEWALKS YOU'LL SEE STREET LIGHTS. IT TELLS YOU THE SECTION TO REFER TO. IF YOU'D GONE UNDER SUBDIVISION FOR THAT SAME THING, WHICH WAS THE FIRST WORD, YOU'LL GO DOWN HERE AND FIND SUBDIVISION OF LAND AND LETS BEE IF WE CAN FIND THAT JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY. OK WE FOUND IT THERE TOO, IF YOU LOOK UNDER SUBDIVISION OF LANDS UNDER IMPROVEMENTS REQUIRED YOU'LL FIND STREETLIGHTING, SO ON THAT ONE WE ARE LUCKY WE COULD HAVE FOUND IT UNDER BOTH SECTIONS. IT BECOMES PRETTY EASY, BUT THE IDEA HERE ITS NOT A DIFFICULT CONCEPT AT ALL, BUT I'VE JUST FOUND PEOPLE GO ALONG WITH THIS BROAD CONCEPT AND SOMETIMES THE BROAD CONCEPT YOU WON'T FIND THEM BUT IF YOU CAN GO RIGHT TO STREETLIGHTING GREAT. NOW TO CHECK YOURSELF, YOU'LL WANT TO GO LOOK UNDER, IT MIGHT NOT BE STREETLIGHTING PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE SIX IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING OBSCURE LIKE ILLUMINATION I MEAN I DON'T KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO TRY TO THINK OF EVERY POSSIBLE WORD THAT WOULD BE THERE. THATS THE OTHER PROBLEM FOR INDEXES. THE WORD I MIGHT THINK OF FOR SOMETHING, I MIGHT THINK ROAD, ROAD IMPROVEMENT, WELL IT MIGHT BE UNDER THE INDEX UNDER STREET IMPROVEMENT OR HIGHWAY IMPROVEMENT OR ANY NUMBER OF WORDS THAT WOULD MEAN THE SAME THING. SO WHAT YOU HAVE TO CONCENTRATE ON WHEN YOUR TRYING TO DO INDEX RESEARCH. FIRST THINK ABOUT THE MOST SPECIFIC THING, STREETLIGHTING AND THEN THINK ABOUT ALL THE DIFFERENT THINGS IT MIGHT BE REFERRED TO AS. BECAUSE JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK OF IT AS GTREETLIGHTING SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE. AND THEN WHEN YOU GO TO YOUR CODE LETS TAKE A LOOK AND WALK THROUGH THIS SINCE YOUR ON STREETLIGHTING LETS GO AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT IT AND SEE HOW WE CAN INTERPRET THAT SECTION. NOW WE FOUND TWO SECTIONS ALREADY, WE FOUND STREETS AND SIDEWALKS, WE FOUND SUBDIVISION IMPROVEMENTS STREETLIGHTING SECTION 20A17.1N. OKAY, PAGE 1189 THIS JUST HAPPENS TO BE A GOOD ONE CAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS YOU'LL SEE AS YOUR LOOKING FOR THIS IS YOU'VE GOT TO FOLLOW THESE NUMBERS. SOMETIMES YOU MAKE SILLY MISTAKES, I`VE DONE IT BEFORE IN DOING RESEARCH ESPECIALLY WITH A CODE THAT IS 20A17.1N WELL YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOU. HAVE EACH SECTION RIGHT AND WHEN IT GETS BETTER IS WHEN YOU HAVE 20A17.1 SUBSECTION NDA -22. THAT8 REAL CRITICAL CAUSE IF YOU GET TO SECTION ND. YOU HAVE TO GET RIGHT TO THE RIGHT SECTION. THAT8 WHAT A| -L YOUR NUMBERS UP TOP MEAN THEY WILL TELL YOU EXACTLY WHERE YOU ARE BUT MAKE SURE YOUR LOOKING AT THE RIGHT SECTION AND LIKE THIS 20A17.1 GOES ON FOR PAGES AND PAGES SO IT COULD BE EASY THAT YOU WOULD BE READING THE WRONG THING. ANYWAY SO WE FIND STREETLIGHTING - LETS SEE - ATTORNEY TORPY READS FROM THE BOOK TO A POINT WHERE IT STATES WHEREVER IN THE OPINION OF THE CITY ENGINEER. HE STOPS TO SAY WHICH IS KIND OF FUNNY BECAUSE WE JUST HAD THIS COME UP IN THE CITY THERE IS A REQUIREMENT FOR THE UTILITY FOR SEBASTIAN LAKE8 FOR INCREASES IN THERE FEES THAT THE CITY'S ENGINEER A CONSULTANT OR THE CITY ENGINEER REVIEW- SOMETHING WELL THE ISSUE IS WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CITY ENGINEER. HOW DO YOU ADOPT THE CODE" RIGHT NOW DAVE FISHER IS ACTING AS A CITY ENGINEER BUT DAVE IS ABOUT TO BE LEAVING YOU WILL BE WITHOUT A CITY ENGINEER YET THIS CODE SPECIFICALLY REQUIRES, PUTS SOMETHING THERE YOU KNOW IF THE CITY ENGINEER WHENEVER , WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU HAVE NO CITY ENGINEER NOW WHAT DO YOU DO. MR. WADSWORTH STATES WELL COULDN'T YOU USE A CONTRACT ENGINEER. WE HAVE USED THOSE A LOT. ATTORNEY TORPY STATES THERE IS A LOT OF AVENUES BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THERE THAT THE CITY MANAGER COULDN'T JUST RUN IN THERE AND MAKE THAT OPINION BECAUSE HE IS NOT THE CITY ENGINEER UNLESS COUNCIL SPECIFICALLY SAID YOU ARE ACTING IN THE CAPACITY OF ka PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE SEVEN THE CITY ENGINEER WHILE WE HAVE NONE BUT TECHNICALLY ACCORDING TO THIS CODE IT REQUIRES A SPECIFIC TITLED PERSON TO PERFORM A SPECIFIC FUNCTION. YOU CAN'T JUST IGNORE THOSE THEY ARE THERE FOR A SPECIFIC REASON MAYBE FOR A BAD REASON, IT MAY BE FOR A REASON THAT WHEN THIS WAS DRAFTED THAT IS OBSOLETE BUT YOU STILL NEED TO DO IT CAUSE THIS IS THE LAW OF THE CITY. IT MAY BE THAT THE CITY COUNCIL THEN NEEDS TO COME IN AND AMEND THE ORDINANCE AND THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS WHERE THE BOARDS CAN BE VERY HELPFUL. THE CITY COUNCIL DOES NOT DEAL WITH THESE ORDINANCES AS MUCH AS YOU ALL WILL AND AS A PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD YOU HAVE TO NOT ONLY READ THESE, YOU HAVE TO APPLY THESE. YOU GUYS IN LARGE SCALE ARE POLICY MAKERS AND YOUR MAJOR FUNCTION AS A PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD ARE TO TAKE THESE ORDINANCES AND THEN LOOK AT THESE DEVELOPMENTS THAT ARE COMING IN AND MAKE SURE ITS ALL CONSISTENT WITH THE ORDINANCES AND WITH THE OVERALL PLAN OF THE CITY AND ALSO AGTHETICALLY CONSISTENT WITH THE OVERALL PLANS OF THE CITY NOW IF YOU COME INTO AN ORDINANCE LIKE THIS AND FOR SOME REASON LETS SAY YOU FIND THAT SOMETHING JUST CAN'T BE WORKED. IT SAY THEY WANT TO PUT IN STREETLIGHTING OR LETS SAY THEY DON'T WANT TO PUT IN 8TREETLIGHTING AND FOR SOME REASON THE ORDINANCE IGN'T WORKING, EVERYTIME YOU TRY TO APPLY IT YOU RUN INTO TECHNICAL PROBLEMS. THATS WHERE THE BOARD SHOULD MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO CITY COUNCIL FOR AMENDMENTS TO THESE ORDINANCES CAUSE THATS HOW YOU'LL GET THEM BETTER. THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST REASONS THAT I CAN IN HERE WAS THIS PROBLEM WITH THE LAUNDROMAT. OKAY, WE ALL GO ROUND AND ROUND, WELL I'VE LOOKED AT THIS CODE A DOZEN TIMES OVER THAT VERY ISSUE AND I CAN SIT HERE RIGHT TODAY AND TELL YOU THAT THERE IS NO CLEAR ANSWER. THE CODE IS NOT CLEAR ON A LAUNDROMAT. CAUSE IT SIMPLY DOES NOT REFERENCE A LAUNDROMAT. IT TRIES TO DEFINE EVERY OTHER KIND OF BUSINESS BUT IT DOESN'T SAY LAUNDROMAT. AND CLEARLY YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS THERE, YOU GET SOMEONE LIKE BRUCE WHOSE PRIMARY JOB IS TO APPLY THESE ON A DAILY BASIS SO HE SITS BACK AND NOW HE SAYS OKAY WHAT IS IT. AND I THINK HE HAS MADE A PROPOSAL AND I AGREE WITH IT THAT THE ORDINANCE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED SO THAT IN THOSE SITUATIONS WHERE YOU HAVE A BIG HOLE LIKE THAT LIKE A LAUNDROMAT OR A CARWASH OR WHATEVER, THAT PROBABLY NEEDS TO COME BEFORE PLANNING AND ZONING OR SOMETHING ELSE PUT IN THE ORDINANCE GO SOMEHOW IT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED CAUSE RIGHT NOW ITS JUST WIDE OPEN AND VAGUE. BUT YOU WIND UP WITH PORTIONS OF ORDINANCES WHICH ARE HARD TO INTERPRET OR SOMEHOW OBSOLETE. LETS GO THROUGH WITH THE REST OF THIS THING. RICK READS FROM THE BOOK AGAIN. ANOTHER PROBLEM WITH ORDINANCES AND THATS WHY I AM MAKING YOU GO THROUGH THIS THING, YOU READ SOMETHING LIKE THAT - YOU CAN READ THAT SIX TIMES AND COME UP WITH A MEANING BUT EACH OF YOU CAN READ IT SIX TIMES AND COME UP WITH A PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE EIGHT DIFFERENT MEANING. IT IS A LONG CONVOLUTED SENTENCE. SO THEN YOU COME DOWN TO A POINT THATG THE NEXT PART OF STATUTORY INTERPRETATION AND THAT IS WHAT EVERY BODY WILL CALL THE SPIRIT OF THE STATUTE. THERE IS TWO DISTINCT PORTIONS. THERE IS THE WRITTEN PORTION THE ACTUAL BLACK AND WHITE AND THEN THERE IS THE SPIRIT. WHY WAS IT WRITTEN. AND THAT IS ANOTHER PART OF STATUTORY INTERPRETATION, IF THE THING IS VAGUE IF YOUR SITTING HERE LOOKING AT THIS STATUTE AND YOU READ SOMETHING SIXTEEN TIMES AND YOU CAN'T MAKE HEAD NOR TAILS OF IT AND I PROMISE YOU THAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU AND IT IS NOT THROUGH YOUR IGNORANCE THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT IS THROUGH DRAFTMANGHIP AND IT IS ESPECIALLY TRUE WITH ORDINANCES. ORDINANCES HAVE A TENDENCY TO BE COPIED FROM TOWN TO TOWN FROM CITY TO CITY AND IN THE AGE OF WORD PROCESSORS ITS WORSE. YES, TOMM%E'S OVER THERE SCISSOR CUTTING BUT THATS RIGHT CUT AND PASTE IS THE NAME OF THE GAME A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF THAT IS VERY GOOD. YOU WILL HAVE MANY ORDINANCES FOR CITIES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN TESTED IN THE COURTS AND YOU KNOW THEY ARE SOUND AND THEY WILL WITHSTAND THE REVIEW OF THE COURTS AND IN THAT SITUATION YOU WANT TO ADOPT THEM. A CLASSIC EXAMPLE THE CITY OF MELBOURNE HAS AN ORDINANCE ON THE BOOKS FOR REGULATING TOPLESS BARS. IT HAS BEEN TESTED IN THE COURTS. NOW THAT WAS STRUCK DOWN BUT THERE ARE VERY SPECIFIC REASONS IT WAS -STRUCK DOWN THE COURTS INSTRUCTED THE PROBLEMS WITH THE ORDINANCE AND WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE TO CORRECT IT. THE CITY OF PALM BAY THEN ADOPTED AN ORDINANCE AND IT WAS DESTROYED IN THE COURTS. IT WAS JUST DESTROYED THE COURTS JUMPED ALL OVER IT BUT GUESS WHAT THE CITY OF PALM BAY DIDN'T GO IN AND TAKE MELBOURNE'S ORDINANCE WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN TESTED AND JUST MAKE THE CHANGES THAT THE COURT SAID NEEDED TO BE CHANGED AND ADOPT IT WHICH PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN A PRUDENT PRACTICE. NOW GUESS WHAT THEY ARE DOING. THEY ARE DOING JUST THAT. SO THERE IS SOME TIMES CUT AND PASTE ISN'T BAD IF YOU HAVE AN ORDINANCE THAT HAS BEEN TESTED IN THE COURTS YOU WANT TO REAPPLY IT BUT YOU'LL ALSO FIND JUST SOMETIMES PURE LAZINESS AND YOU`LL GET STATUTES. I'VE READ THEM I READ A LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE ABOUT A MONTH AGO AND I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT CAUSE THEY EVEN CROSS REFERENCED THEY HAD FOR GOTTEN TO TAKE OUT THE REFERENCES TO THE PARTICULAR CITY THAT WAS USED. NOW THAT HAPPENS SOME TIMES WHERE YOU'LL FORGET TO DO THAT AND I'VE MADE THE SAME MISTAKE BUT WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH THE REST OF THE ORDINANCE YOU'LL FIND THAT THEY DIDN'T CHANGE THINGS THAT CLEARLY DIDN'T APPLY. 8O SOMETIMES YOU'LL GET ORDINANCES LIKE THIS THAT ARE JUST POORLY DRAFTED. WHEN YOU GET IN THAT SITUATION YOU NEED TO SIT BACK AND SAY WELL WHAT WAS THE INTENTION HERE WHEN THIS WAS PASSED. WHEN THIS SECTION ON STREETLIGHTING WAS DRAFTED THAT LAST SENTENCE THAT LONG CONVOLUTED SENTENCE, WHAT WAS THE INTENTION, WELL THE INTENTION HERE WAS SPECIFICALLY THAT PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE NINE ONCE THE LIGHTS ARE PUT IN THERE NEEDS TO BE A PROVISION FOR MAINTENANCE SO THAT THESE THINGS DON'T SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE CARE OF THEM ONCE THEGE THINGS ARE PUT IN AND THE CONTRACTOR IS LONG GONE. THATG THE ESSENCE OF THESE THINGS. IF YOU READ IT NOW YOU PROBABLY COULD READ THIS THIS SECTION ISN'T THAT BAD. YOU COULD FIGURE OUT HOW YOU PLACE THEM ON THERE BUT THEY HAVE GIVEN YOU FORTY MILLION ALTERNATIVES HERE TO DO IT WHETHER IT BE THROUGH SOME KIND OF AN ASGOCIATION OR DEED RESTRICTIONS THAT ALLOW THE CITY TO COME IN AND GET IT DONE AND GET REIMBURSED WHATEVER. BUT THAT WAS THE INTENT SO IF SOMEONE COMES IN AND TRIES TO TELL YOU THAT THIS THING - FOR EXAMPLE LETS SAY SOMEONE COMES IN AND HAS A NEW METHOD, A DIFFERENT METHOD FOR PROVIDING FOR PERPETUAL MAINTENANCE OF STREETLIGHTS IN A SUBDIVISION BUT IT IS NOT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS LISTED HERE. WELL CAN THEY DO IT. IF I WERE ASKED THAT QUESTION I'D SIT BACK THE IDEA IS MAINTENANCE, I'D LOOK AT THE PROGRAM THEY HAVE AND IF IN FACT WHAT THEY ARE emo� PROPOSING WILL PROVIDE FOR PERPETUAL MAINTENANCE OF STREETLIGHTING AND FOR SOME REASON IT IS MORE COST EFFECTIVE OR IT IS SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T EXIST WHEN THIS CODE WAS WRITTEN WELL SURE THEY WOULD HAVE NO REAL PROBLEM WITH DOING THAT AS LONG AS THE SPIRIT OF THE ORDINANCE IS MET. THATS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS MEET THAT SPIRIT NOW WHEN I'M CALLED TO INTERPRET CODES, I LOOK AT THAT PORTION TOO NOT JUST THE BLACK AND WHITE BUT I LOOK AT WHAT THE INTENTION WAS BEHIND THATG WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO. NOW TO FINISH READING THIS THING IF WE CAN - READ AGAIN FROM THE BOOK- STARTING AT UPON COMPLETION OF THE DEVELOPMENT ETC. TO THE END. A COUPLE POINTS HERE - ONE - AS DEFINED FROM FLORIDA LAW THERE ARE STATUTES THAT DEFINE THIS THING SO YOU WOULD HAVE TO GAY WHERE WELL THERE IS TWO THINGS IF IT IS NOT IN YOUR STATUTORY REFERENCE TABLE AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS OR NOT BUT LETS JUST SEE 20A17.2 , 20A17.1G IS DEFINED IN CHAPTER 177. FIRST I'D GO TO THAT CHAPTER TO SEE IF THAT HAPPENS TO BE WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. BUT EVEN IF JT IS NOT THEN WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS GO TO THE STATE STATUTE THEMSELVES THEIR INDEX SECTION AND YOU WOULD LOOK UP CONDOMINIUM OR COOPERATIVE ASSOCIATION IN THE INDEX AND THAT WOULD TAKE YOU TO A DEFINITIONAL SECTION OF THE INDEX THAT YOU WOULD USE' TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT YOUR RESEARCH IS INCOMPLETE. BECAUSE YOU'VE GONE THROUGH AND SAID AS DEFINED BY FLORIDA LAW. WELL THEY ARE TELLING YOU THAT IT HAS TO BE MAINTAINED BY ONE OF THESE VARIOUS ASSOCIATIONS. IF SOMEBODY IS SITTING OUT HERE PROPOSING TO YOU A PLAN THAT IS GOING TO HAVE STREET LIGHTS MAINTAINED BY SOMETHING THAT THEY CALL SOME KIND OF A GROUP YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE UNDER YOUR OWN ORDINANCES THAT WHATEVER THAT GROUP IS MEETS THE DEFINITIONS OF ONE OF THESE CHARACTERS. AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS GO BACK AND CHECK THE STATE STATUTE BUT THE TENDENCY IS TO READ PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WOR1*-`8HOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 AS DEFINED BY FLORIDA LAW AND THEN MOVE ON AND ACCEPT WHAT THE GUY OUT THERE TELLS YOU. THE GUY OUT THERE THAT IS TRYING TO PROPOSE SOMETHING HIS JOB IS JUST TO GET YOU TO APPROVE IT. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT COMPLIES WITH THIS OR NOT. THATG HIS JOB CAUSE IF YOU APPROVE IT YOUR STUCK ON THAT ONE. SO IF HE SAYS THIS IS GOING TO BE MAINTAINED BY SUCH AND SUCH A GROUP AND YOU JUST ASSUME THAT IT MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS OF FLORIDA LAW AND YOUR WRONG ITS TOO LATE TO CHANGE YOUR MIND. YOU'VE GIVEN THEM THE APPROVAL ON SOMETHING THAT MAY NOT MEET YOUR OWN ORDINANCES. SO YOU TAKE A LITTLE THING LIKE THAT AND I'M REALLY NOT ELABORATING TOO MUCH, I"VE TAKEN A VERY SIMPLE SECTION ON STREETLIGHTING AND WE HAVE SPENT TWENTY MINUTES FIGURING OUT HOW TO INTERPRET THIS ONE LITTLE SECTION. THATG WHAT INTERPRETATION IS ALL ABOUT, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT EVERY SECTION, EVERY WORD AND THEN KNOW WHERE TO GO TO FIND OUT HOW TO DEFINE IT. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT, YOU HAVE DONE INCOMPLETE RESEARCH AND YOU PROBABLY ARE GOING TO COME UP WITH THE WRONG ANSWER, YOUR PROBABLY GOING TO COME UP WITH THE WRONG CONCLUSION 8O IT IS SOMEWHAT OF A COMPLEX PROBLEM. NOW A COUPLE OTHER POINTS ABOUT THIS, IT KEEPS REFERRING TO A CONDOMINIUM ASSOCIATION IT PUTS THE BURDEN ON YOU ALL WHEN YOUR REVIEWING THESE PLANS TO MAKE SURE ALL THESE THINGS ARE TAKEN CARE OF AND THATS WHO IS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF THESE. THAT THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION IS ESTABLISHED AND PART OF THE RESPONSIBILITIES IS THAT THEY TAKE CARE OF THE 8TREETLIGHTING. QUESTION -SINCE THE ORDINANCE IMPOSES ON THE CITY OR WHOEVER IS APPROPRIATE IN APPROVING THESE PLANS, THE BURDEN OF MAKING SURE THAT STREET LIGHTS ARE TAKEN CARE OF, LETS SAY TO DO THAT SOMEONE COMES IN AND PROPOSES A HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION CREATED BY DEED RESTRICTIONS THAT IS GIVEN THE BURDEN OF MAINTENANCE OF STREET LIGHTS. NOW A STREET LIGHT IS NOT MAINTAINED IN AN AREA. IS THAT A VIOLATION OF THE CODE OF ORDINANCES. LETS GAY THAT PART OF THAT BURDEN THROUGH THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION SAYS THAT THE PERSON WHO HAS THE STREET LIGHT IN FRONT OF THERE HOUSE HAS THE BURDEN TO MAINTAIN IT. THE PERSON DOESN'T MAINTAIN IT. CAN THE CITY COME IN AND FORCE THAT PERSON TO FIX THAT STREET LIGHT. WHAT DO YOU THINK. MR. WADGWORTH SAYS IF IT IS A PRIVATELY OWNED STREET LIGHT HE WOULD SAY NO. OKAY. FIRST QUESTION WHO OWNS THE STREET LIGHT AND WHO IS THE BURDEN ON. THE ORDINANCE PLACES THE BURDEN ON YOU TO MAKE ' SURE IT IS PERPETUALLY MAINTAINED DOESN'T IT BEFORE IT IG PUT IN. DOES THAT CHANGE YOUR VIEWPOINT.. MR. MAHONEY SAYS WOULD IT MATTER WHETHER OR NOT THE STREETS ARE DEDICATED TO THE CITY. RICK SAYS I DON'T KNOW WOULD IT. IF IT WAS A PRIVATE SUBDIVISION AND THE STREETS ARE NOT DEDICATED IT IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE MORE DIFFICULT TO DO ANYTHING ON A PRIVATE STREET CAUSE THE CITY HAS NO LIABILITY PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1.990 PAGE ELEVEN OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT. THERE IN LIES THE GDC PROBLEM RIGHT NOW IN THE CITY ON THE STREETS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ACCEPTED YET, THE QUESTION IS WHO HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY. THE POINT I AM MAKING HERE IS JUST BECAUSE THIS ORDINANCE REQUIRES YOU TO MAKE SURE THAT THE MECHANISM FOR MAINTENANCE IS SET UP IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT LATER ON YOU CAN COME BACK AND ENFORCE THAT MECHANISM. IN OTHER WORDS, IF THE MECHANISM REQUIRES THE HOMEOWNER TO MAINTAIN IT THE METHOD OF ENFORCEMENT IS THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION THATS THERE BURDEN THATS WHAT HAS BEEN SET UP IN THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION THAT THEY WOULD ESTABLISH. THEY WOULD HAVE TO DO IT YOU COULD NOT GO TO THAT RESIDENT AND MAKE THEM FIX THAT STREET LIGHT. NOW YOU COULD GO TO THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION IF THERE WAS AN AFFIRMATIVE DUTY FOR THEM TO ENFORCE AND REQUIRE THEM TO ENFORCE BUT YOU COULD NOT GO TO THE INDIVIDUAL. SO YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ TOO MUCH INTO HERE. THERE IS UP IN THE TOWN OF MALABAR THERE IS A SUBDIVISION THAT HAS A LOT OF TREES AND THERE WAS UP UNTIL TWO MONTHS AGO A TREE ORDINANCE IN THAT CITY - BUT THERE WAS IN THIS PRIVATE SUBDIVISION EXTENSIVE RESTRICTIONS IN THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION WITH RESPECT TO CUTTING DOWN 'TREES AND THE DEVELOPERS WERE ROUTINELY IGNORING THEM AND THE PROBLEMS WERE ROUTINELY BROUGHT BEFORE THE TOWN COUNCIL FOR ENFORCEMENT AND I HAD THE DISTASTEFUL BURDEN OF INFORMING THEM THAT THE TOWN COUNCIL COULD DO NOTHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT WAS A HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION RULE ON PRIVATE PROPERTY. NOW THERE IS A TREE ORDINANCE UP THERE AND NOW IT ALLOWS US TO COVER IT AND ENFORCE. BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THOSE THINGS. WHO IS THE ENFORCEMENT ONCE YOU PUT THESE THINGS DOWN NOW DO WE HAVE THE POWER TO ENFORCE IT. THATS ANOTHER EVALUATION YOU HAVE TO MAKE,, THERE MAY BE THINGS AROUND HERE YOU DO NOT LIKE, BUT IF THERE IS NOT AN ORDINANCE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO ENFORCE IT YOU HAVE A REAL PROBLEM AS FAR AS MOVING INTO IT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF REWRITING RIGHT NOW IS YOUR NUISANCE ORDINANCE. BECAUSE YOUR NUISANCE ORDINANCE AND WE FINALLY COMPLETED IT BECAUSE NUISANCE ORDINANCES ARE ALWAYS VAGUE., AND POOR BRUCE HAS BATTLED WITH THIS THING FOR MONTHS AND HE ASKED ME SIX MONTHS AGO- RICK WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A JUNK VEHICLE AND JUNK AND THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THE DEFINITIONAL SECTION OF THE ORDINANCE AS IT SITS RIGHT NOW AND THERE HAS BEEN A COUPLE OF SITUATION WHERE HE HAS CALLED OR SOMEONE FROM HIS OFFICE HAS CALLED AND I'VE GOT A CLASSIC A GUY HAS A PICK UP TRUCK IN HIS FRONT YARD IN THE BACK OF THAT PICK UP TRUCK ARE ' ENGINE PARTS NOW IF THOSE ENGINE PARTS WERE SITTING IN THAT MANS FRONT YARD OR GIDE YARD THEY ARE CLEARLY JUNK UNDER THE ORDINANCE. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE ORDINANCE WHICH WILL TELL YOU IF THEY ARE STILL JUNK ONCE THEY GO IN THE BACK OF THE MANS PICK UP TRUCK. NOTHING ITS AN OPEN QUESTION. WHAT DO YOU DO WHERE DOES THE ORDINANCE GO HOW DO WE INTERPRET THIS AND IT IS A MATTER OF BACK TO THE SPIRIT WHAT IS WRITTEN THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE TWELVE ORDINANCE IS VAGUE AND BY THE WAY JUST TO ANSWER THE QUESTION I TOLD HIM THEY COULDN'T DO ANYTHING BECAUSE IT IS NOT JUNK ITS MOBILE THE GUY MOVES IT EVERY DAY, ITS NOT LEFT THERE IT METHING IN THE BACK OF A MANS PICK UP TRUCK. ANYWAY IS SO LETS MOVE ON A LITTLE BIT. MR. THOMPSON WANTS TO TALK ABOUT THAT ONE JUST A MINUTE. HE STATES HE INTERPRETS THAT PARAGRAPH TO BE TALKING ABOUT A SUBDIVISION WHERE IT IS - THE STREETS AND SO FORTH ARE GOING TO BE OWNED BY THE DEVELOPER WHAT DO YOU DO REFERENCE STREET LIGHTS IF YOUR OUT IN A DEDICATED STREET. RICK STATES IF YOU LOOK IN HERE YOU SEE A PROVISION IN THE SAME SECTION THAT REQUIRES DEED RESTRICTIONS - THAT ALLOWS THE CITY TO COME INTO MAINTAIN THE LIGHTS. CLEARLY TALKING ABOUT THE SENTENCE THAT READS THE OWNERS ARE SUBJECT TO ASSESSMENTS BY THE CITY YOU ARE NOT HAVE ON A DEDICATED STREET A PRIVATE DEVELOPER GO IN THERE AND PUT A STREET LIGHT ON A DEDICATED STREET UNLESS THE CITY APPROVES IT AND HE AGAIN PROVIDES FOR MAINTENANCE. YOUR RIGHT THIS SECTION DEALS WITH THE SUBDIVISION THAT IS GOING IN BUT NOTHING HAS BEEN DEDICATED YET. THIS IS WHEN IT ALL STILL BELONGS TO THE DEVELOPER. GO YOU WILL NOT HAVE A SITUATION UNDER THIS SECTION AS CONTEMPLATED. THE SECTION WHERE A STREET ALREADY EXISTS AND SOMEONE WANTS TO PUT A STREET LIGHT ON THE STREET AND IT IS A PUBLIC STREET I WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE ORDINANCE BUT I AM SURE THERE IS A PROCEDURE IN HERE FOR GETTING THAT DONE. THERE IS ALSO A PROCEDURE IN HERE FOR REQUIRING SOME TYPE OF GUARANTEED MAINTENANCE OR AT LEAST ALLOWS THE CITY TO DENY IT UNLESS IT CAN BE MAINTAINED. IN FACT I WOULD BE WILLING TO BET WITHOUT RESEARCH UNDER YOUR STATUTE SCHEME THAT IT DOES NOT ALLOW THEM TO BE PUT UP ON PUBLIC STREETS IT BECOMES SOMETHING THAT THE CITY HAS TO DO. BECAUSE THE CITY WOULD DO THAT WHEN THE CITY CAN FINANCE IT. YOU WILL SEE THAT ALL THE TIME CITIES WILL COME AN HAVE A PROGRAM FOR STREET LIGHTS ITS ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES. WHEN ARE WE GOING TO GET STREET LIGHTS ON OUR STREET. AND THAT8 SIMPLY A BUDGET ISSUE AND MUST BE ADDRESSED BY THE CITIES ALL THE TIME. AN/} IT IS WHEN THE CITY CAN AFFORD TO MAINTAIN THEM NOW IT MIGHT BE THROUGH AN INCREASE IN TAXES IT MIGHT BE THROUGH A SPECIAL ASSESSMENT AGAINST THE PEOPLE ON THAT STREET TO COVER THE COST OF PUTTING THE STREET LIGHTS IN CAN BE THROUGH ANY NUMBER OF MECHANISMS FOR THE COSTS OR DEFERRING COSTS FOR IMPROVEMENTS THAT ARE UNIQUE TO A PARTICULAR SECTION NOW JUST TO PICK A SECTION OUT OF HERE I WANT TO SHOW YOU A FEW MORE 'THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO YOUR INTERPRETATION. OF ORDINANCES BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WILL DEAL WITH COMMONLY IS WHERE SOMEONE HAS DONE SOMETHING UNDER AN ORDINANCE AND YOUR TRYING TO DECIDE WHETHER THE ORDINANCE APPLIES AND YOUR DEALING WITH DATES, TIMES AND IF YOU LOOK PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE THIRTEEN AND YOUR LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE IS NOT GOING TO DO IT AS MUCH CAUSE YOUR LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE PRETTY MUCH WAS ADOPTED AT ONE TIME AND I AM TRYING TO GEE IF THERE ARE ANY SECTIONS THAT ARE NO THEY ARE NOT. IF YOU GO TO YOUR CODE OF ORDINANCES FOR A MOMENT (SECRETARY ADVISES THEY DO NOT HAVE THIS BOOK) YOU GUYS DO NOT REFER TO THEM THAT OFTEN BUT LET ME COVER THI8 WITH YOU JUGT A MOMENT YOU MAY HAVE THE OCCASION TO HAVE TO REFER TO THIS MANY TIMES YOU MAY HAVE SOMETHING IN THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE THAT IS CROSS REFERENCED IN THE CODE OF ORDINANCES. YOU WILL HAVE SOMETHING RELATING TO IT IN BOTH SECTIONS, THE ONE I JUST USED JUNK HAPPENS TO BE REFERRED TO IN BOTH THE CODE OF ORDINANCES AND THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE FOR THAT REASON YOU NEED TO LOOK AT BOTH, CAUSE THEY ARE BOTH ORDINANCES CAUSE THEY ARE BOTH STATUTES FOR THE CITY OF SEBASTIAN. BUT IN EACH ONE YOU WILL FIND IN THE END AND I WISH YOU DID HAVE THEM IN PARENTHESIS AT THE VERY END OF THE SECTION THIS BEING A SECTION YOU WILL HAVE A SECTION NUMBER AN ORDINANCE NUMBER AND MAYBE ANY OTHER ORDINANCES, THIS IS YOUR LEGISLATIVE HI8TORY., THAT TELLS YOU, IT ISN'T SOMEONE ON A COMPUTER THAT SCREWED UP ON AND THROUGH A BUNCH OF NUMBERS DOWN ON THE ENDS OF THE PAGE THAT TELLS YOU WHAT ORDINANCE ADOPTED THIS AND ALSO IT MAY GIVE YOU SEVERAL ORDINANCE NUMBERS THAT WERE RECURGERS TO THE ORDINANCES. YOU MAY HAVE HAD SIXTEEN DIFFERENT ORDINANCES OR AMENDMENTS TO THE ORDINANCES AND IF YOU REALLY HAVE A COMPLEX ISSUE WHERE SOMETHING HAS BEEN AROUND FOR TWELVE, FIFTEEN OR TWENTY YEARS, AND YOU SEE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT WERE DONE AND YOUR TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW DID THIS HAPPEN AND WHAT DO WE DO NOW YOU WILL WANT TO GO BACK AND SEE WHAT THE ORDINANCES WERE WHAT APPLIED AT THE TIME THAT IT WAS DONE AND THE WAY YOU FIND THAT OUT IS BY LOOKING AT THE SECTION THAT APPLIES NOW AND LOOKING AT THE INFORMATION AT THE END AND SEEING THE HISTORY OF THAT ORDINANCE. NOW IT MAY BE THAT THERE IS NOTHING THERE WHICH TELLS YOU THAT THERE IS NO HISTORY THERE IT I8 AN ORDINANCE THAT WAS ADOPTED WHENEVER IT WILL ALWAYS TELL YOU THE ORDINANCE THAT ADOPTED THAT SECTION. BUT IT MAY NOT HAVE ANY OTHER ORDINANCES THAT IT REFERENCES. WELL VERY SIMPLY THEN THATG IT AND WHAT WAS DONE BEFORE EITHER WAS DONE WITHOUT ORDINANCE AND THAT8 THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, IF THERE WAS NO ORDINANCE IT COULD HAVE JUST BEEN DONE YOU"LL FIND THIS A 'TOWNS r' LOT IN SMALLER AND A MATTER OF FACT I IMAGINE YOU'LL FIND IT EVEN HERE IN SEBASTIAN CAUSE YOU GUY8 HAVE GROWN AND � r DEVELOPED AND TWENTY YEARS AGO THERE ARE PROBABLY A LOT OF .�� THINGS THAT WERE DONE WITHOUT BENEFIT OF ORDINANCE HERE THAT YOU WILL BE DEALING WITH NOW. WE DEAL WITH THAT DAILY IN MALABAR. BUT THATS PART OF YOUR BURDEN ESPECIALLY IN PLANNING AND ZONING CAUSE YOU'LL BE DEALING WITH THINGS, WE WERE (4"4) ba PLANNING AND ZONING -j COMMISSION SPECIAL WORI-:"%*S[-101--' MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE FOURTEEN DEALING WITH THE SHOPPING CENTER ONCE YOU HAVE TO GO BACK, YOU SEE HISTORICALLY WHATS HAPPENED, YOU REALLY NEED TO DO THAT LOOK BACK AND SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THAT AREA TO UNDERSTAND THE ENTIRE PROBLEM AND SEE IF MAYBE A DIFFERENCE ORDINANCE APPLIED AT A DIFFERENT TIME, THEN GO THROUGH YOUR STATUTORY HISTORY BUT THATS WHERE YOU FIND IT. THATS THE OTHER THING THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT ABOUT THIS IS GOING BACK AND SEEING WHAT APPLIED AT THE TIME SOMETHING WAS DONE CAUSE YOU MAY BE LOOKING AT THE WRONG THING AND ALSO MAKING SURE YOUR LOOKING AT THE RIGHT SECTION OF THE CODE., I'M SURE YOU ALL KEEP THEM UPDATED, I KEEP MY UPDATED BUT WHAT YOU REALLY DO NOT WANT TO DO IS MAKE THE MISTAKE OF APPLYING AN ORDINANCE THAT DOESN'T APPLY ANYMORE ITS THE REVERSE OF GOING BACK AND SEEING THE HISTORY YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE YOUR CURRENT. BUT ITS EASY TO MISS A SUPPLEMENT HERE YOU HAVE THE BENEFIT OF A STAFF THAT COMES BACK AND GIVES YOU SUPPLEMENT AND I THINK THEY EVEN DO IT FOR YOU DON'T THEY. THEY DON'T. ONE OF THE MOST COMMON THINGS I HAVE SEEN IS BOARD MEMBERS WILL GET BUSY AND FORGET EVEN THEY ARE GIVEN AN UPDATE AND FORGET TO PUT THEM IN AND YOU HAVE A STACK OF UPDATES SITTING HOME IN YOUR CLOSET' THIS HIGH AND YOU'RE DEALING OFF THE BOOK AND THIS CITY HAS AN AMAZING HISTORY FOR HAVING LONGEVITY ON THE BOARDS., AT LEAST WHAT IS IT BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT, THOSE GUYS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR YEARS WRITE. MR. MAHONEY STATES HE HAS BEEN ON THE BOARD FOR TEN YEARS. THATS RARE SAYS RICK BOARD MEMBERS HARDLY EVER STAY AROUND FOR THAT LONG BUT REALLY WHAT YOU WIND UP WITH IS YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL TO UPDATE BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY CRITICAL CAUSE YOU MIGHT WIND UP OPERATING UNDER THE WRONG ORDINANCE AND YOU WILL HAVE SERIOUS PROBLEMS. WE HAVE AN APPEAL GOING RIGHT NOW FROM A DIFFERENT BOARD. THATS ONE OF THE THINGS THEY ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT. THEY ARE DEAD WRONG FORTUNATELY. THE BOARD UNDER THE RIGHT ORDINANCE AND ACTED TOTALLY APPROPRIATELY IN MY OPINION BUT WE HAVE AN APPEAL GOING THATS ONE OF THE ISSUE THEY RAISED. FIVE MINUTE RECESS WAS TAKEN HERE AT 7:55 P.M. ALL PRESENT AT 8:OO P.M. OKAY ONLY TWO MINOR POINTS I WANT TO BRING UP AND THEN WE WILL OPEN UP TO DO WHAT EVER YOU BUYS WANT TO DO. THE ONLY TWO POINTS I WANT TO BRING UP BECAUSE I THINK THEY ARE IMPORTANT AND WE BRIEFLY COVERED THEM IN THE BEGINNING. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT EACH ONE OF YOUR SEC TIONS WHEN YOU GET A NEW 8ECTION, THERE WILL BE DEFINITIONAL SECTIONS IN YOUR CODE. THESE DEFINITIONAL SECTIONS ARE CRITICAL TO YOU WHENEVER YOUR INTERPRETING. AGAIN J MENTIONED IT IN THE VERY BEGINNING IN NOT PUTTING THE WRONG INTERPRETATION TO A WORD (4"4) PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15 1 PAGE FIFTEEN BUT WHENEVER YOU ARE READING A SECTION OF YOUR LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE ALWAYS GO AND 8EE IF THERE IS A DEFINITIONAL SECTION IN THIS CODE THERE IS AN ENTIRE GLOSSARY PAGE 819 DIVISION GLOSGARY, THIS SECTION IN YOUR LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE NOTICE IT IG AN ENTIRE SECTION TO DEFINING WORDS AND YOU HAVE TO RELY ON IT. THATS WHY IT IS THERE AND IF YOU HAVEN"T LOOKED AT THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS PART OF THE ILLNESS OF BEING A LAWYER ONE OF THE THINGS I DO FOR JUST SOMETIMES I WANT TO READ, I"LL TAKE SOMETHING LIKE THE GLOSSARY AND I'LL JUST READ IT AND ALL THE TERMS THAT ARE DEFINED AND LIKE I SAID THAT IS KIND OF A SICK THING TO DO AND I NORMALLY DON'T ADMIT THAT PUBLICLY BUT REALLY IT HELPS YOU. SOMETIMES YOU'LL SEE ME THUMBING THROUGH STATUTE AND THINGS WHAT I AM DOING IS GOING THROUGH INDEX SECTIONS JUST TO SEE WHATB THERE I HAVE FOUND THINGS THAT I WOULD NEVER HAVE DREAMED SOMEONE WOULD HAVE THE FORETHOUGHT TO COVER IN A STATUTE OR A CODE. THE REASON I'VE KNOWN THEY ARE THERE CAUSE IN MY FREE TIME, I HAVE SAT THERE AND JUST THUMBED THROUGH AND SAW WHAT WAS IN HERE. THIS WAY YOU KNOW ITS THERE AND IF THE ISSUE COME8 UP YOU'LL KNOW THERE IS SOMETHING ON POINT AND THAT WILL HELP YOU TREMENDOUS AMOUNT IN UNDERSTANDING YOUR ORDINANCES AND YOU'LL ALSO BY DOING THAT PICK UP ON HOW MANY TIMES THESE THINGS ARE CROSS REFERENCED BACK AND FORTH. THE LAST ONE OF THE 'THINGS is JUST GOING BACK YOU'LL SEE YOU MIGHT HAVE FOUR DIFFERENT ORDINANCES OR SECTIONS OF THE ORDINANCES THAT REFER TO A SIMILAR ISSUE AND YOU HAVE TO READ EACH ONE OF THEM AND YOU HAVE TO READ THEM IN CONTEXT YOU CAN VERY EASILY READ A STATE- STATUTE TATESTATUTE OR CODE OF ORDINANCE AND FIND ONE SECTION SAYS BLACK CARS CAN DRIVE ON THE STREET AND THEN FIND ANOTHER SECTION WHICH GAYS BACK CARS CAN DRIVE ON THE STREET. THE DIFFERENCE IS IF YOU FIND THAT, ITS NOT THAT SOMEBODY MADE A MISTAKE OR THEY WERE CONFUSED IT IS THAT ONE SECTION MIGHT BE DEALING WITH PRIVATE STREETS AND THE OTHER SECTION WITH PUBLIC STREETS. AND THE RULE IS DIFFERENT SO IF YOU READ IT OUT OF CONTEXT YOU'LL COME UP WITH THE WRONG INTERPRETATION. THATS MY LITTLE SPIEL ON INTERPRETATIONS IF THERE IS SOMETHING I DIDN'T COVER PLEASE NOW I OPEN IT UP TO YOU GENTLEMEN AND LADIES TO CONTINUE. MR. WADSWORTH I WOULD LIKE TO START FOR THE SAKE OF GETTING EVERYBODY IN WE WILL START AT THE END OF THE TABLE AND YOU CAN DIRECT ALL YOUR QUESTIONS TO THE CITY ATTORNEY AND HE CAN ANSWER HOW WE GO. BILL WE WILL START ON YOUR END, I AM SURE YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONS. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORK8H01=' MEETING AUGU8T 15, 1990 PAGE SIXTEEN EARL: BASICALLY I GAVE YOU A LETTER ABOUT A MONTH AGO A8KIN6 FOR A CLARIFICATION OF UNITY OF TITLE ON PUD AND I BELIEVE THATS IN SECTION 20A4.9B1 AND 20A4.6D AND I WOULD LIKE TO GET A CLARIFICATION ON THAT AS 70 WHETHER OR NOT TITLE CAN BE TRANSFERRED IN A PUD BEFORE IT IS FINAL PLATTED. ATTORNEY:JUST TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, I HAVE LOOKED AT THAT AND HAVE NOT GOTTEN A WRITTEN OPINION BACK ON THAT YET I HAVE LOOKED AT THAT SECTION NOW MY OPINION IS THAT IT CAN BE IN A PUD BEFORE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE UNITY OF TITLE EARL: IN THAT CASE SIR WOULD YOU READ 20A16.1 ATTORNEY: UNLAWFUL SALE OR TRANSFERS OF PROPERTY %G THAT WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO. PAGE 1100. OKAY YOUR DEALING WITH A REVERSE SITUATION HERE THOUGH,, WHAT THEY ARE SAYING HERE IS THAT YOU CAN"T AGREE TO SELL A PIECE OF PROPERTY OR TRANSFER A PIECE OF PROPERTY THAT DOESN'T EXIST YET. THE SITUATION WE DEALT WITH, IN OTHER WORDS IF I HAVE A PLATTED LAND AND I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT FURTHER, BUT SAY IF I HAVE A PLATTED LAND OF 10 ACRES JUST SURFACE LOOKING AT THIS WITHOUT GOING ANY FURTHER, THAT I CANNOT CONTRACT TO SELL A TWO ACRE PARCEL OF THAT IF IT HASN'T BEEN PROPERLY SUBDIVIDED YET. BUT THE SECTION WE DEALT WITH BEFORE WAS NOT THAT SITUATION. WE DEALT WITH THE SITUATION WHERE THERE ARE THREE RECOGNIZED TWO ACRE PARCELS, I FORGET THE SIZE AND EACH ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE HAS AGREED TO SELL IT TO SOMEBODY. WHAT THEY OWNED. AND THATS WHAT THEY HAD. THEY HAD THIS WAS FOR THE BIG PLACE GOING DOWN ON THE RIVER. EARL: NO I AM REFERRING TO CHEGGER GAP AND THE CITY MANAGER TRYING TO GET THE TWO ACRES OF PROPERTY FOR THE POLICE STATION. ATTY-. OH SEE THATS NOT THE ONE I LOOKED INTO THEN, I LOOKED INTO ONE UNITY OF TITLE WELL THE SITUATION I RESEARCHED AND MAYBE I`M LOOKING AT THE WRONG ISSUE FOR YOU IS WHERE YOU HAVE TWO OR THREE PEOPLE WHO HAVE AGREED TO SELL PARCELS OF LAND TO SOMEBODY. AND THATS PERFECTLY FINE TO DO THAT AND IT IS ALL SUBJECT TO APPROVAL BEFORE IT IS ALL REZONED, REPLATTED AND REDONE ALL SUBJECT TO THE APPROVAL OF THE PROPER PROCEDURES. THE REVERSE SITUATION I HAVE NOT LOOKED AT YOUR RIGHT THAT APPEARS TO SAY YOU CANNOT DO THAT , AND I WOULD LIKE TO LOOK AT THAT A LOT CLOSER. MR. MAHONEY STATES THAT WAS IN CONNECTION WITH THE QUESTION HE ASKED ABOUT FIRM EVIDENCE OF A UNIFIED CONTROL OF THE ENTIRE AREA WITHIN A PROPOSED PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT AND PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORk'SHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE SEVENTEEN UNIFIED CONTROL IS WHAT WE AREE *T'A].-.KII\IG ABOUT., ATTY-2 RIGHT THAT8 THE SECTION I LOOKED UP AND THATS NOT WHAT EARL IS ASKING ME AND I APOLOGIZE AND I DON"T KNOW THAT I HAVE EVEN LOOKED UP THAT PARTICULAR G%TUATION. EARL: WELL I HAD SUBMITTED THAT LETTER THRU FRANK OBERBECK AND BASICALLY WHAT I TOOK WAS ON PAGE 231 ITEM D AND WHERE IT SAYS ALL PROPERTY WITHIN A COMMERCIAL PUD SHALL BE UNDER UNIFIED OWNERSHIP OR CONTROL AS PROVIDED IN SECTION 20A4.9B. AND SPECIFICALLY I FELT THAT HE COULD NOT SELL THE LAND OUT UNTIL HE HAD FINISHED HIS DEVELOPMENT AND GOT HIS FINAL PLAT WAS BASICALLY WHAT I FELT AND WHEN HE WAS TRYING TO SELL IT TO THE CITY FOR POLICE DEPARTMENT I FELT THAT THIS WAS AN ERROR. ATTY: THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE I HAVE NOT RESEARCHED AT ALL I HAVE NOT LOOKED AT IT, I AM NOT SURE IF THAT WENT TO ME PERSONALLY OR TO MY OFFICE AND I JUST HAVE NOT SEEN IT. EARL: I GAVE A COPY TO YOU PERSONALLY AT ONE OF THE MEETINGS ATTY: THEN I HAVE THREE OR FOUR OF THOSE SITTING BACK THERE THAT WE HAVE NOT DONE YET. EARL: THE SAME NIGHT WE ASKED YOU, I GAVE YOU A COPY OF THE LETTER. IT REFERENCED FOUR SPECIFIC SECTIONS OF UNIFIED CONTROL FROM THE LDC AND AS YOU WERE GOING THROUGH AND GIVING OUR LITTLE EDUCATION ON HOW TO USE THE DIRECTORY AND INDEX AND CROSS REFERENCE I RAN ACROSS THIS ITEM F DOWN HERE ON UNLAWFUL SALE AND TO ME IT APPEARS IT APPLIES DIRECTLY TO THAT ITEM. ATTY: IT MAY EARL: IF THAT IS THE CAGE IT SHOULD BE BROUGHT TO THE CITY MANAGERS ATTENTION IT NOT ONLY HAS EFFECT ON THE CHE8GER GAP BUT THE JULIAN PROPERTY AND POSSIBLY ANY OTHER PUD THAT WOULD BE IN EFFECT WITHIN THE CITY AT THE PRESENT TIME. AND ALL THE OWNERS OF THE PUD'S SHOULD BE ALSO NOTIFIED THAT THEY COULD BE GUILTY OF A MISDEMEANOR FROM THE FLORIDA STATUTES. ,*0"` BILL: I THINK WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO FIND OUT IF SOMEONE COMES � IN AND GETS A CONCEPTUAL PUD AND THEN JUST SELL OFF PART OF IT AND STILL MAINTAIN CONCEPTUAL PUD STATUS OR WHETHER THEY SHOULD HAVE TO REVERT AND GO BACK TO WHAT THEY WERE BEFORE PUD. ATTY: THATG A VERY GOOD QUESTION BECAUSE I THINK ON A ` .. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE EIGHTEEN CONCEPTUAL PUD IG THEN THEY GO BACK TO SQUARE ONE., IF YOU HAVE A CONCEPTUAL PUD AND IT HAS BEEN APPROVED FOR A CERTAIN USE AND CERTAIN DEVELOPMENT PLAN AND THEN A SECTION OF THAT IS EXTRACTED AND USED FOR SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT AND NOT CONSISTENT WITH THAT PUD AGAIN WITHOUT LOOKING AT IT, I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT IT WOULD BE AUTHORIZED BY THE CODE., WITHOUT REQUIRING THEM TO COME BACK TO SQUARE ONE AND REDO THE THING BUT THATS AGAIN PART OF LOOKING " SEE YOU HAVE TO ALSO LOOK AT IN THAT SITUATION, IF THERE HAS ALREADY BEEN A CONCEPTUAL PUD APPROVED YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT TOO BECAUSE IT MAY PROVIDE FOR THAT, IT MAY ALLOW FOR THAT, I DON"T KNOW AGAIN I HAVE SEEN THESE THINGS WHERE THEY APPROVE ALL SORTS OF UNUSUAL THINGS THAT DEVELOPERS CAN DO AS PART OF THE CONCEPTUAL. EARL: WELL BASICALLY I WAS LOOKING AT THE FACT THAT THE ORDINANCE DOES SPECIFICALLY STATE THAT THE OWNERSHIP MUST BE RETAINED. ATTY: BUT HAVE YOU SEE THE CONCEPTUAL YET EARL: NO I WAS NOT ON THE BOARD AT THE TIME THAT IT WAS APPROVED SECRETARY;: IT DID ALLOW FOR A POLICE STATION ATTY.- SEE THATS THE POINT IF IT ALLOWS FOR A POLICE STATION BILL: IT DID BUT IT DID NOT SHOW THE ELKS CLUB OUT THERE ATTY: SEE I DON"T WANT TO GET INTO THOSE KIND8 OF ISSUES HERE TONIGHT. I REALLY DON'T. THATS SOMETHING YOU GUYS DEAL WITH MRS. TAYLORt IT ALLOWS FOR THE LIBRARY TO DIDN"T IT,, MR. MAHONEY NO WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT IT WAS APPROVED BY CITY COUNCIL, WE WEREN'T EVEN CONSULTED. ATTY: THE THING THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU LOOK AT LETS SAY THAT THE PARTICULAR PUD ALLOWS FOR WHATEVER IS BEING DONE TO BE DONE AND THAT IS INCONSISTENT WITH THE CODE. NOW WE HAVE A TOUGH SITUATION, IF IT IS INCONSISTENT WITH THE CODE /�*� BUT IT WAS ALREADY APPROVED BY THE CITY AND A DEVELOPER HAS ' � RELIED ON THAT APPROVAL BY THE CITY IT WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR THIS CITY NOW TO COME BACK AND CHANGE ITS MIND., THATS THE POINT THAT WHEN IT WAS APPROVED BY THE BOARD THAT WAS THE BURDEN OF THE BOARD TO GO THROUGH AND MAKE SURE IT WAS CONSISTENT WITH CODE AND IF THERE WAS A PROVISION THAT WAS INCONSISTENT WITH THE CODE THAT THE BOARD MISSED WELL NOW YOU'VE GOT A DEVELOPER OUT THERE THATS ACTING IN RELIANCE ON PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE NINETEEN A CONCEPTUAL AND ALTHOUGH IT MAY BE INCONSISTENT WITH CODE HE WOULD HAVE A VERY GOOD STRONG RECOURSE AGAINST THE CITY FOR APPROVING IT EVEN THOUGH IT IS INCONSISTENT WITH CODE. THATS ALL PART OF INTERPRETATION YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE HISTORY AND SEE WHAT WAS DONE AND MANY TIMES A CITY WILL MAKE DECISIONS AND I MAKE OPINIONS FREQUENTLY FOR CITIES THAT ARE BASED ON THREE FACTORS: ONE -THE CODES THAT ARE IN EXISTENCE, TWO: CAGE LAW IF THERE IS ANY ON WHAT EVER THE PROBLEM IS AND THREE: IS SIMPLY A MATTER OF PRACTICALITY FINANCE AND WHETHER OR NOT THE CITY CAN PREVAIL. WHAT KIND OF LIABILITY THE SITUATION EXPOSES THE CITY TO. AND IF IT IS AN UNCLEAR ISSUE OR SOMETHING THAT I THINK THE CITY HAS MADE AN ERROR AND EXPOSED ITSELF TO A SERIOUS LIABILITY WE MIGHT COME UP WITH A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION THEN IF THE CITY HAS ACTED PROPERLY., THATS NOT TO BE DEBATED TONIGHT ON A SPECIFIC I8SUE. BILL: OKAY CAN I ADD ONE THING TO THAT G ON PAGE 1101 WHICH FOLLOWS WHAT EARL WAS REFERRING TO BUILDING PERMITS SUBJECT TO FINAL PLAT APPROVAL AND RECORDING - NO BUILDING PERMITS SHALL BE ISSUED NOR SHALL ANY CITY SERVICES BE RENDERED UNTIL FINAL PLAT FOR SUCH IMPACTED LAND HAS BEEN APPROVED AND RECORDED PURSUANT TO REQUIREMENTS HEREIN STIPULATED. CAN THE CITY GO OUT THERE AND BUILD THAT ROAD ON THE JULIAN PROPERTY. ATTY: I DON'T KNOW I HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN IT. YOU COULD ASK ME FOUR MILLION QUESTIONS AND I COULDN'T ANSWER THEM CAUSE I HAVE NOT REVIEW IT. BILL: THIS IS A QUEGTION AND ANSWER SECTION AND THATS WHY WE ARE ASKING THESE QUESTIONS. ATTY: SURE, WELL THOGE KIND OF THINGS. BILL-.- WERE NOT TRYING TO BE OBSTINATE OR THROW ROADBL[K��� IN THE WAY OF ANYTHING PUD'S ARE ALWAYS CONTROVERSIAL ANYWAY AND WE WOULD JUST LIKE TO GET SOME IDEA WHAT SHOULD OR SHOULDN'T BE DONE. ATTY.- JUST REMEMBER IF YOU HAVE A PUD THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED A CONCEPTUAL THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED - IN LIKELIHOOD UNLESS THEY DEVIATE FROM THE CONCEPTUAL YOUR PROBABLY 8TUCK WITH IT. THATS WHY IT IS VERY CRITICAL IN THE APPROVAL PROCEG8 THAT EVERY I BE DOTTED EVERY T BE CROSSED IT BE CROSS REFERENCED AND RESEARCHED AND CHECKED OUT C�U8E PUDS ARE CONTROVER8IAL FOR THE VERY SIMPLE REASON THAT PUD"S BY THERE NATURE ALLOW DEVIATION FROM THE ORDINANCES, FROM THE CODES,, THAT WHAT THE WHOLE PURPOSE BEHIND Al PUD IS. IS TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO DEVIATE WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE. BECAUSE THEY HAVE A PUD AND THATS THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORi;SHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE TWENTY POINT IF YOU HAVE APPROVED A CONCEPTUAL PUD THEN YOU ARE BY NATURE AL -LOWING -YOUR IN ESSENCE GRANTING VARIANCES ALMOST. YOU ARE ALLOWING PEOPLE TO DEVIATE FROM THE CODE TO CERTAIN EXTENTS FOR DEVELOPMENT PURPO8E8. BUT IF ITS DONE THE LIKELIHOOD IS AND AGAIN I AM SPEAKING GENERALLY I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS SPECIFIC ONE I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE REALLY REFERRING TO BUT IF IT HAS BEEN DONE THERE IS A GOOD POSSIBILITY YOU WILL HAVE TO ADHERE TO IT AND STICK WITH IT. EARL: BUT AT THE SAME TIME IF THE LDC SPECIFICALLY STATES THIS IS THE WAY IT HAS TO BE IF THIS WAS OVERLOOKED IN SETTING UP THE PUD AND NO REFERENCE IS MADE ABOUT A VARIANCE OF THIS PARTICULAR ITEM THEN DOES NOT THE LDC HAVE TO BE ENFORCED. ATTY: NOT NECESSARILY, NO BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS GONE OUT WITH THE APPROVAL AND AUTHORIZATION OF THE CITY AND 400� DONE SOMETHING THAT IS CONTRARY TO THE EXISTING CODES AND ` EXPENDS TIME MONEY AND EFFORT ON THAT THEN YOU MAY HAVE A PROBLEM IF YOU COME BACK AND NOW TRY TO GAY WE CHANGED OUR MIND AND EXPOSE THE CITY TO GREAT LIABILITY. YES, I AM REAL STICKLER IF YOU HAVE A CODE YOU EITHER ENFORCE IT OR YOU TAKE IT OFF YOUR BOOKS -BUT EARL:NOTHING HAS BEEN MENTIONED ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC ITEM. AND THEN SOMEBODY GOES AHEAD AND DOES SOMETHING AND VIOLATES THAT DOES NOT THAT NULL AND VOID THAT PUD AT THAT POINT. ATTY: I WON'T GIVE YOU AN OPINION ON THAT SITTING HERE TONIGHT CAUSE I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PUD. THE MERE FACT THAT A PUD AUTHORIZES SOMETHING THAT IS NOT APPROVED BY THE CODE NO IT DOES NOT NECESSARY VIOLATE OR VOID THE PUD MR., WAD8WORTH INTERRUPTS AND STATES WOULD LIKE TO GET EVERY BODY TO HAVE THERE QUESTIONS ANSWERED AND WE HAVE FORTY MINUTEG LEFT. EARL; WILL YOU GIVE US AN ANSWER ATTY: WHAT YOU NEED TO DO- YOU SAID YOU GAVE ME A LETTER, DOES IT LAY OUT ALL THE FACTS ON THIS SPECIFIC CASE BILL: AS FAR AS I KNOW OR AS FAR AS THE LDC GOES. ATTY: WHAT I WOULD -REQUEST THAT YOU DO IS AGK FOR A FORMAL OPINION THROUGH THE CITY MANAGERS OFFICE BECAUSE SINCE % HAVE BEEN STARTING TO DO A LOT OF WORK FOR THE BOARDS I HAVE BEEN GETTING A LOT OF THINGS LIKE THAT FORWARDED TO ME AND I HAVE BEEN ASKED BY THE CITY MANAGERS OFFICE THAT BEFORE I SPEND TIME AND MONEY TO RESEARCH AND TO DO THAT ONLY FROM THE (40w01) PLANNING AND ZONING COMMI88ION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE TWENTYONE STANDPOINT OF CONSISTENCY BECAUSE APPARENTLY THERE HAVE BEEN SOME OF THESE THAT HAVE BEEN RESEARCHED ALREADY AND IF IT GOES RIGHT THROUGH THE CITY MANAGERS OFFICE HE WILL FORWARD IT UP TO ME THATS WHAT HE HAS BEEN DOING AND I BEEN COMING BACK WITH WRITTEN OPINIONS ON IT. I WILL BE HAPPY TO GIVE YOU AN OPINION ON IT BUT I WANT TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO RESEARCH THE MATTER. I WILL BE HAPPY TO DO IT THATS NOT A PROBLEM. EARL: ALRIGHT BILL; IS THE CITY MANAGER MAKING DETERMINATIONS WHETHER IT IS A VALID REQUEST OR NOT ATTY: NO HE HAS JUST BEEN PASSING THEM THROUGH AS A MATTER OF CONTROL TOMMIEx HE DETERMINES WHEN SOMETHING HAS TO BE WRITTEN HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN AGK FOR IT TO BE WRITTEN. TOMMIE SAYS EARL %SN'T THAT ONE NULL AND VOID CAUSE THEY HAVE GIVEN BACK THAT PIECE OF LAND EARL: IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE I STILL WANT AN ANSWER. MAYMEx I WONDER CAN A PERSON BUILD A FENCE IN AN EASEMENT THAT HAS NOT BEEN REVERSED OR ANYTHING CAN THEY BUILD THEY SAY WELL THEY PAY TAXES ON IT WELL ITS AN EASEMENT BETWEEN MY PROPERTY AND THEIR PROPERTY DO I PAY TAXES ON IT TOO. ATTY: THATS AN INTERESTING QUESTION YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AN EASEMENT FIRST OF ALL IF ITS IN THEIR PROPERTY LINE IN OTHER WORDS YOUR EASEMENT SITS WITHIN SOMEONE8 PROPERTY LINE MAYME; THIS EASEMENT IS BETWEEN THE TWO PROPERTIES ATTY: BUT THERE IS A PROPERTY LINE SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT EASEMENT SOMEWHERE MOST EASEMENTS WHAT YOU HAVE IF IT IG A UTILITY EASEMENT MAYME: NOT ACCORDING TO THE PLAT OF MY PROPERTY THE EASEMENT IS THERE AND IT SHOWS A CLEAR EASEMENT BETWEEN THE TWO PIECES OF PROPERTY. ATTYn GO WHERE YOU PROPERTY STOPS THE EA8EMENT 8TARTG IF THATS THE CASE THEN I WOULD SAY NO THATS VERY UNUSUAL., IN MOST SITUATIONS YOU HAVE ONE SINGLE PROPERTY LINE AND THEN AN EASEMENT THAT GOES TEN FEET ON BOTH SIDES OF THE PROPERTY LINE — THATS THE TYPICAL SITUATION MAYME-0 NO IT SHOWS THAT ON THE PLAT - A FIVE FOOT EASEMENT ' PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE TWENTY TWO BETWEEN MY PROPERTY AND THEIR PROPERTY AND WHEN IT PAGSES THAT IT GETS TO BE A TEN FOOT EASEMENT. ITG A CROSS A STREET THERE ATTY: I THINK YOU ARE MISREADING YOUR PROPERTY I THINK IF YOU LOOK AGAIN AT YOUR PLAT, I THINK YOU'LL NOTICE THAT YOUR PROPERTY LINE IS TWO AND ONE HALF FEET INTO THAT EASEMENT. MAYME: NO I AM SORRY IT IS NOT. NOT ACCORDING TO THE PLAT AND NOT ACCORDING TO MY DEED. ATTY: THATS INTERESTING WELL THEN THEN I WOULD SAY NO BECAUSE IT IS ACTUALLY NOBODY'S PROPERTY. MAYME; WELL THEY BUILT A FENCE THERE AND THE REASON I AM CONCERNED IS THERE IS A WELL THERE THAT I GET MY WATER FROM AND THE MAN GETS HIS WATER FROM THEY DO NOT BUT IT IS IN 40401` THEIR YARD. NOW CAN % GO IN THERE AND DO SOMETHING ATTY: THAT IS AN ISSUE THAT IS SINGULAR TO YOU AND I WILL NOT GIVE YOU AN OPINION FOR THE VERY SIMPLE REASON THAT I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU A LEGAL OPINION THE PROBLEM IS BASICALLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS BUILDING IT ON CITY PROPERTY AND THATG WITHOUT PERMISSION TO DO IT THEY CAN"T JUST DO IT -JUST LIKE I COULDN'T COME OUT ON YOUR LAND AND BUILD A FENCE MAYME; AND THEY DID NOT GET A PERMIT ATTY: THATG SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN RIGHT TO MR. COOPER'S OFFICE FOR ENFORCEMENT. MAYME: HE SAID THEY OWN THE EASEMENT AND THE DEED MY DEED DOESN'T SHOW IT. BILL; WE APPROVED A MOTEL IN LIMITED COMMERCIAL TWO WEEKS AGO AND IT WAS A CONDITIONAL USE AND I MADE THE ARGUMENT THAT SINCE IT WAS RESIDENTIAL EVEN THOUGH IT WAS IN LIMITED (-.'OMMERC%AL IT SHOULD HAVE PROVIDED 50 PERCENT OPEN SPACE BECAUSE ON PAGE 658 IT STATES RESIDENTIAL OPEN SPACE REQUIREMENTS AND I WANTED TO AS[` YOU WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS CONSIDERED RESIDENTIAL OPEN SPACE. ATTY: THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THIS IS RESIDENTIAL OR NON- RESIDENTIAL BILL; IT 18 IN LIMITED COMMERCIAL BUT IT IS A CONDITIONAL USE %N LIMITED COMMERCIAL I WAS JUST WONDERING WHETHER OR NOT WE COULD APPLY THAT TO IT OR WHETHER IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN APPLIED. THEIR ARGUMENT WAS OF COURSE THAT THERE WA8N'T ANY REQUIREMENT FOR OPEN SPACE IN LIMITED COMMERCIAL. BUT NUMBER PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE TWENTY THREE TWO OBVIOUSLY CONTRADICTS THAT I JUST WONDERED WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD HAVE APPLIED THE FIFTY PERCENT OPEN SPACE REQUIREMENT. SHIRLEY: COULD YOU PLEASE SPEAK UP, I AM VERY INTERESTED IN THIS SUBJECT AND I CANNOT HEAR YOU. ATTY.- DON'T WORRY IT WASN'T THAT GOOD OF A QUESTION: WHAT HE IS WONDERING ABOUT IS WHETHER OR NOT THE LIMITED OPEN SPACE HAD TO BE REQUIRED AT ALL SOMEBODY SAID THAT IT DIDN'T BILL: WELL I WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT RAISED THE QUESTION AND THE CONDITION WAS THAT SOMEONE WOULD RENDER A LEGAL OPINION AS TO WHETHER' OR' NOT IT HAD TO BE APPLIED. ATTY: WHAT' -rYPE OF MOTEL WAS IT. BILL; THIS WAS A THREE STORY THE OWNER WAS GOING TO LIVE ON THE TOP FLOOR ATTY: I SEEM TO RECALL SOMETHING ABOUT THAT I DON'T KNOW BILL: I DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE SHOULD HAVE APPLIED THE MIXED USE OPEN SPACE OR WHAT ATTY: WELL, IT APPEARS THE CODE HERE PERMITS A MIXING THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU REALLY HAVE HERE A MIXED USE OR WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE PURELY A RESIDENTIAL USE. LET ME SEE WHAT A MOTEL IS CONSIDERED HERE., DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHAT A MOTEL IS CATEGORIZED AT. BILL; AS A HOTEL ATTY: I REALIZE THAT BUT IS IT CATEGORIZED AS COMMERCIAL NON- COMMERCIAL RE8IDENTIAL, DOEG ANYBODY KNOW. % WOULDN'T IMAGINE IT COULD BE PERMITTED IN RESIDENTIAL, I'VE NEVER SEEN ONE WHERE IT IS. BUT LETS TAKE A LOOK. BILL: PAGE 838 WILL HAVE THE DEFINITION ATTY: YEA BUT I WANT TO FIND OUT WHERE THEY ARE PERMITTED. ^a"` ' ~f 8ECRETARY: ON PAGE 155 THEY ARE ONLY PERMITTED IN COMMERCIAL AREAS. ATTY: CAUSE THATS GOING TO BE YOUR ANSWER CAUSE IF ITS A MIXED THEN YOU HAVE TO USE THE MIXED USE OPEN SPACE REQUIREMENTS HERE WE GO THATS WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR., HOTELS AND MOTELS - ITS ALL COMMERCIALS PLANNING AND ZONING COMJYJ I SS I ON SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 159 1990 PAGE TWENTY FOUR SHIRLEY-ALSO ON PAGE 63 IN MARINE RELATED COMMERCIAL ACTIVITIES THAT IS WHERE IT SPECIFICALLY CALLS OUT RESIDENTIAL UNITS UNDER ACCOMMODATIONS FOR SEASONAL TRANSIENTS AND IT DEFINITELY LISTS IT AS MARINE RELATED. ATTY; NONE OF THESE ARE STRICTLY RESIDENTIAL NO I WOULD JUST GLANCING AT IT SAYS IT GOES UNDER THE MIXED AND NOT RESIDENTIAL. NOW I AM NOT SURE WHAT THAT TABLE WORK8 OUT THERE BILL,.: WELL THEY WOULD BE WELL WITH'IN *THE 'TABLE ATTY: IT DOES NOT APPEAR ANYWHERE IN THE CODE TO APPEAR AS A RESIDENTIAL USE. BILL; BUT I JUST WANTED TO FIND OUT FOR MY OWN INFORMATION YOU READ RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT YOU FIGURE IT IS A RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT ATTY: YOU SEE I DON'T I SEE IT AS A COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT ITS DIFFERENT THEN A CONDOMINIUM, A CONDOMINIUM IS USUALLY CAN GO IN A RESIDENTIAL CAUSE ITS A OWNED UNIT A HOTEL/MOTEL CONTEMPLATES A COMMERCIAL ESTABLISHMENT WITH PEOPLE COMING AND GOING EVERY DAY HIGHER VOLUMES OF TRAFFIC, HIGHER BURDEN ON THE AREA AND USUALLY HOTEL MOTELS ARE NOT PERMITTED IN RESIDENTIAL AT ALL. BILL; OK I THANK YOU FOR THAT THAT SETTLED THE QUESTION FOR ME. JIM.-. Ol' BILL ANY OTHER QUESTIONS. BILL: NO SHIRLEY: WHEN SOMETHING IS GRANDFATHERED IN I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO REALLY FIND ANYTHING THROUGH THE BOOK MYSELF TO COVER IT. CAN YOU TELL ME WHERE TO LOOK ATTY: YOU MEAN TO COVER WHAT IS "GRANDFATHERED IN" THE TERM GRANDFATHERED IS A TERM OF ART THAT EVERYBODY USES TO MEAN THAT IS SOMETHING THAT EXISTED PRIOR TO AN ORDINANCE THE TERMS YOU WILL FIND IN THE ORDINANCE ARE NON -CONFORMING USES MOST OF YOUR NON -CONFORMING USES ARE GRANDFATHERED IN ^ BECAUSE WHAT THEY ARE ARE THINGS THAT EXISTED PRIOR TO THE ORDINANCE AND NOW AN ORDINANCE IS PASTED THAT WOULD MAKE THEM THOSE USES DON'T CONFORM WITH THE ORDINANCE BUT SINCE THEY EXISTED THEY CAN REMAIN. NOW YOU'LL HEAR PEOPLE SAY THEY ARE GRANDFATHERED IN BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE BUT THEY ARE REALLY NON CONFORMING THEN THERE IG ALL SORTS OF RULES THAT YOU CANNOT INTENSIFY THEM, YOU CAN'T DO THEN YOU GET INTO A WHOLE �m� ' ` PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE TWENTY FIVE OTHER GET OF WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH THEM. FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE A LETS SAY, A SINGLE STORY BARBER SHOP THAT UNDER NEW ORDINANCE NOW IF SOMEONE WERE COMING IN TO PUT IN TODAY COULDN"T PUT IT WHERE IT SITS BUT AT THE TIME IT WAS PUT IN IT WAS PERFECTLY FINE. WELL, IT CAN STAY THERE, IT IS GRANDFATHERED IN, IN ESSENCE AND IT CAN STAY THERE AS LONG AS THEY KEEP IT AS A SINGLE STORY BARBER SHOP NOW IF THAT PERSON TRIES TO PUT A SECOND STORY ON IT AND MAKE IT INTO A TWO STORY BEAUTY SALON WITH MASSAGE PARLORS, THE ODDS ARE THAT THIS WOULD BE AN INTENSIFICATION AND NOT PERMITTED. I DON'T THINK YOUR GOING TO SEE THE WORD GRANDFATHERING ANYWHERE IN THE ORDINANCE BUT YOU'LL LOOK FOR NON -CONFORMING. SHIRLEY: THANK YOU. WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE STREET LIGHTING BEFORE AND YOU WERE USING IT AS AN ILLUSTRATION, YOU SAID SOMETHING ABOUT COULD THE CITY GO IN - THE ANSWER WAS NO BECAUSE IT BELONGS TO THE ASSOCIATION. COULD THE CITY GO IN UNDER THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS WAS FOR HEALTH, SAFETY AND WELFARE. ATTY: YES THERE ARE VARIOUS RULES AND REGULATIONS THIS IS A , , VERY ASTUTE QUESTION. THERE ARE CERTAIN TIMES WHEN A CITY CAN DO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING IT WANTS TO FOR THE PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY AND WELFARE. YOU HAVE A CLASSIC SITUATION, YOU HAVE A HURRICANE AND YOU HAVE WHAT IS BASICALLY ON PRIVATE PROPERTY TREES THAT ARE HANGING OVER THE ROADWAY. EVEN IF YOU DID NOT HAVE AN ORDINANCE THAT PERMITTED YOU TO GO AND CUT DOWN THAT TREE, I WOULD BE WILLING TO SAY THAT JUST UNDER PURE PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY AND WELFARE EMERGENCY THAT THE CITY COULD GO ON THAT PRIVATE PROPERTY AND CUT DOWN THAT TREE IF THERE IS A DANGER OF IT POSSIBLY FALLING DOWN AND IT IS ABOUT TO FALL ON A PUBLIC STREET OR FALL WHERE IT COULD CAUSE DANGER NOT TO BE OVER BOARD. BUT YEA THERE ARE CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE YOU COULD DO THAT. THE, WHAT I WAS USING AS AN ILLUSTRATION WITH STREET LIGHTS WAS NOT TO ILLUSTRATE WHETHER OR NOT YOU COULD GO IN AND FIX THE STREET LIGHTS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE THERE IS, IF AN ORDINANCE UP FRONT REQUIRES YOU TO MAKE SURE THAT A PRIVATE DEVELOPER SETS UP A HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION FOR MAINTENANCE, NOW THAT HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION DOES THAT, YOU MAKE SURE THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION IS GET UP THATS WHERE THE CITY HAD TO DO UNDER THE CODE, NOW IT IS UP TO THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION TO MAKE SURE THAT THE MAINTENANCE IS ACTUALLY CONDUCTED NOT THE CITY YOU DON'T HAVE A SPECIFIC PROVISION THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO GO IN BYPASS THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION NOW THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU COULDN'T DO SOMETHING AGAINST THE HOME ASSOCIATION IF IT FAILED CAUSE TYPICALLY IN THE ARTICLES THAT ESTABLISH THE HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION HAS A LIABILITY TO THE CITY WHERE THE CITY COULD ACT UNDER THE ARTICLES. BUT THATG ALL I WAS ILLUSTRATING /�� PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE TWENTY SIX SHIRLEY: OK, I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. JIM; OK, TOMMIE. ATTY: TIMES UP LETS GO. TOMMIE: I ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS BUT I AM ASKING IT FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS. ON PAGE 260 AND 266 WE TALK ABOUT PRELIMINARY DEVELOPMENT PLANS FOR PUDS AND THATS 20A4.13 AND THEN ON PAGE 266 WE TALK ABOUT 20A4.14 FINAL PLANS AND CONTENT MY QUESTION IG AND I SAY I KNOW THE ANSWER. DUES THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SEE THE FINAL DEVELOPMENT PLANS PRIOR TO THEIR BEING BUILT. ISN'T THAT WHAT I SAID BEFORE. ATTY: NO BUT IT IS CLOSE ENOUGH, YOU ASKED IT A DIFFERENT WAY GO MY ANSWER TO YOU OF YES NOW HAS TO BE CHANGED TO NO. THE WAY YOU ASKED IT TOMMIE; NOW, NOW COME ON RICK DON -'T DO ME THAT WAY. ATTY: WELL, YOU CHANGED THE QUESTION. I THINK WHAT TOMMIE WAS ASKING EARLIER IS IF YOU GUYS HAVE ONE SHOT OR TWO SHOTS AT THESE IN ESSENCE. IF THEY COME ACROSS FOR THE PRELIMINARY DO YOU GET TO SEE IT FOR THE FINAL. AND IN MY FEW MOMENTS OF GLANCING OVER THIS I DON'T SEE WHERE FOR THE FINAL IT COMES BEFORE YOU ALL. THE CODE DOESN"T PROVIDE FOR IT TO COME TO YOU. YOU HAVE ONE SHOT AND THATS FOR THE PRELIMINARY AND THATS IT. THE PRELIMINARY IS WHERE YOUR GETTING TO SPECIFICS THE CONCEPTUAL IS JUST THAT. THE CONCEPTUAL IS HERE IS OUR PARCEL, THIS IS OUR NEAT IDEA NOW FORTUNATELY CITIES ARE STARTING TO AND SEBASTIAN IS NO DIFFERENT TO REALLY REQUIRE SOME SPECIFICITY IN THOSE CONCEPTUALS AND I THINK THATS A GOOD MOVE. BUT THE PRELIMINARY IS REALLY GETTING TO THE NITTY GRITTY - BUT ONCE IT COMES FOR THAT AND YOU HAVE APPROVED THAT, THATS IT THE NEXT THING IS IT DOESN'T COME BACK TO YOU, YOU GET YOUR INPUT THEN OR NOT AT ALL. TOMMIE: WHEN IT COMES UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS, BUT THERE MINOR. THATS WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING AND I THINK ATTY: THE REASON I ANSWERED IT THAT WAY IS NOT BECAUSE THE CODE SAYS IT DOESN"T COME BACK BUT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SAY THAT IT DOES. IF THERE WAS A SECTION HERE THAT SAYS IT DOES COME OVER HERE THEN FINE. TOMMIE; WEVE NOT GOTTEN THEM IN THE PAST. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 199C-) PAGE TWENTY SEVEN SECRETARY: BUT ISN'T THE FINAL PLAT SUBMITTED AFTER THE DEVELOPMENT IS BUILT. ATTY: YES, AFTER COMPLETION OF THE PROJECTION SECRETARY: SO THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION CAUSE THE PRELIMINARY IS THE CONSTRUCTION DRAWINGS. ATTY: WHEN YOU APPROVE THAT PRELIMINARY THATS IT, CAUSE THE NEXT THING THAT HAPPENS IS IT GOES IN. AND THEN THEY COME IN FOR A FINAL WHEN %TS DONE TO MAKE SURE THAT IT COMPLIES WITH EVERYTHING THAT WAS APPROVED IN I -FIE PRELIMINARY. TOMMIE; BUT WE DON'T SEE IT. ATTY: NO, BECAUSE YOUR FUNCTION IS AT THE PRELIMINARY STAGE NOW IF IT IS NOT IN COMPLIANCE, THEN THE DEVELOPER HAS A PROBLEM, QUITE FRANKLY I BELIEVE IT MIGHT COME BACK TO YOU AND PROBABLY WOULD HAVE TO GO TO OTHER BOARDS AS WELL FOR VARIANCES. BUT IF THEY VARIED FROM THE PRELIMINARY IT WOULD COME BACK TO YOU. BUT AS LONG AS IT COMPLIES WITH WHAT YOU APPROVED AT THE PRELIMINARY, YOU WON'T SEE IT AGAIN. ITS PRETTY MUCH THE STAFFS DEDUCTIONS, YES IT COMPLIES WITH EVERYTHING DONE. BILL: WE HAD ONE THAT WANTED TO DEVELOP IN PHASES. FIRST PHASE FINAL PLAT WAS APPROVED. ATTY: THAT8 PART OF THE INHERENT PROBLEM OF DEVELOPMENT. THEY USUALLY TAKE A LONG TIME. VERY RARELY HAVE I SEEN ONE GO ACCORDING TO THE DEVELOPERS SCHEDULE. AND YOU WILL WE"VE TALKED ABOUT THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS WAS IT THIS BOARD OR ONE OF THE OTHER'S I BAT IN FRONT OF THE GENTLEMEN WAS COMING IN AND I GAT BACK AND BASICALLY THE QUESTION THAT WAS POSED OR THE STATEMENT THAT WAS MADE WAS YOU PROMISED TO DO THINGS NINE YEARS AGO AND THEY HAVEN]- BEEN DONE YET AND NOW YOU BACK TO USE AGAIN FOR A SPECIAL EXCEPTION. EARL: CAN I AGK A QUESTION ON THIS NOW. IN CONJUNCTION WITH WHAT HAS JUST BEEN SAID ITS COMING BACK TO STAFF TO HANDLE THIS. IN THE EVENT THAT WE NO LONGER HAVE A CITY PLANNER AND WE DO NOT HAVE A CITY ENGINEER AS SUCH IS NOT THAT PUTTING A LOT OF POWER IN ONE MAN'S HANDS. ATTY: I'M NOT SURE HOW WHAT HAPPENS PROCEDURALLY. THEY SHOULD BE TAKING THE PRELIMINARY AND COMPARING IT TO WHAT HAS BEEN DONE AND IF IT IS CONSISTENT NO. YOU HAVE SOMEBODY THAT IS /04� LOOKING AT A SET OF PLANS AND COMPARING WHAT'S BEEN DONE BASICALLY. I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK I DON'T KNOW HOW IT WOULD BE DONE IF YOU LOST ALL YOUR PEOPLE WITH THE : `'z, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 ' PAGE TWENTY EIGHT EXPERTISE TO DO THAT, OBVIOUSLY YOU WOULD NEED TO SOMEHOW GET PEOPLE WITH EXPERTISE TO DO THAT. JIM -0 I WOULD HOPE THE CITY MANAGER WOULD AUTHORIZE CONTRACT 8ERVICE9 TO LOOK AT THAT. ATTY: I'M SURE THAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THAT SITUATION. JIM: THAT'S NORMALLY WHAT THEY WOULD DO. ATTY: IF FOR SOME REASON SOMETHING CAME UP, THAT IS BEYOND THE COMPETENCY OF A PARTICULAR PERSON YOU GET SOMEONE CONTRACT TO LOOK AT IT FOR YOU. IT IS AN INTERNAL. EARL: WELL, BASICALLY I WOULDN'T WANT TO GEE THE ONE PERSON BASICALLY BOGGED DOWN ON SO MUCH THAT HE COULDN'T HANDLE IT. ATTY: THOSE KINDS OF THINGS ARE YOUR ADMINISTRATIVE THINGS AND THATS EXACTLY WHY THEY ARE ADMINISTRATIVE AND YOU HAVE CITY MANAGERS AND YOU HAVE STAFFS FOR DEALING WITH. YOU GUYS ARE POLICY MAKERS YOU SET UP THE POLICY, IN THIS CASE YOU MAKE AN APPROVAL OF SOMETHING AND THEN YOU HAVE A STAFF THAT MAKES SURE IT GETS DONE. AND THATS WHY YOU HAVE STAFFS. FROM A PRACTICAL MATTER NOBODY ON THIS BOARD CAN DO THAT. OR COULD SPEND THE TIME TO DO THAT. EARL: IN THE EVENT THAT YOU NO LONGER HAVE A STAFF AND ITS ALL BEING BOILED DOWN INTO ONE PERSON THEN WOULD IT NOT BE A LITTLE DANGEROUS" ATTY: ALL I CAN SAY IS I WOULD HOPE THAT, THAT DOESN'T OCCUR. JIM: I HAVE THREE AREAS OF CONCERN RICK. NUMBER ONE AND THIS IS GOING TO GET THE ATTENTION OF SOME OF THE COMMISSIONERS ON THE BOARD. HOME OCCUPATIONAL LICENSES - WE GOT A LETTER HERE THAT WE JUST GOT AND WE GET QUITE A FEW OF THESE OBJECTING TO THE HOME OCCUPATIONAL LICENSE. WELL IF I READ THE CODE CORRECTLY THESE LETTERS OF OBJECTIONS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING. BECAUSE IF THEY COMPLY WITH THE CODE AND THEY COMPLY WITH THE ORDINANCES YOU HAVE TO ISSUE A LICENSE IF THEY COMPLY WITH ALL THE RULES AND REGULATIONS. AM I CORRECT IN MY THINKING IS MY QUESTION. ATTY: YES, SHORT ANSWER. BUT I DON'T GAY THAT THEY DON'T MEAN ANYTHING BECAUSE WHAT THESE TEND TO DO IS SHOW YOU THAT IN SPITE OF WHAT THE PERSON TELLS YOU IS GOING TO OCCUR, SOMETHING ELSE IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING. THATS WHAT THESE LETTERS - I MEAN IF YOU HAVE A LETTER HERE THAT JUST SAYS I DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT GOMEBODY'G - GEE A HOME OCCUPATION FIRST OF ALL WHAT IT SHOULD BE APPROVING FIRST OF ALL IS PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE TWENTY NINE SOMETHING THAT TAKES PLACE COMPLETELY WITHIN A PERSONS RESIDENCE THAT HAS NO VISIBLE SIGNS FROM THE OUTSIDE PERIOD. THEREFORE, IF THATS WHAT IS OCCURRING. WELL THEN THE NEIGHBOR HAS NO BASIS FOR OBJECTION. JIM: THATS MY POINT BUT NOW, GEE TECHNICALLY THE H.O.L. HAS NOT BEEN ISSUED AND NOTHING IS HAPPENING THERE YET SO HOW CAN A GUY RAISE AN OBJECTION IF THERE HAS BEEN NO VIOLATION. ATTY: WELL WHAT HAPPENS IS PEOPLE COME IN WITH THEIR OPINIONS. EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO GIVE THEIR OPINIONS AS TO AND AGAIN REALLY THE PURPOSE THEY SERVE IS NOT THE SITUATION WHERE NOTHINGS HAPPENED YET BECAUSE IF NOTHINGS HAPPENED YET AND THE PERSON COMES IN AND SAYS I AM GOING TO ABIDE STRICTLY BY THE ORDINANCE THEN YOUR RIGHT YOU HAVE TO GRANT HIM THE H.O.L. THE, ALTHOUGH IF NOW, SOMEONE COMES IN OR YOU GET THREE OR FOUR LETTERS FROM PEOPLE SAYING THIS PERSON HAS BEEN DOING THIS RIGHT ALONG AND HE IS NOW JUST COMING IN FOR HIS LICENSE THAT OPENS UP THE DISCRETIONARY REVIEW AND THIS BOARD I BELIEVE COULD REJECT IT BASED ON THAT FACT. JIM: WELL, I HAVE NEVER, EVER HEARD OF THAT HAPPENING SINCE I BEEN ON THE BOARD. BUT YOU HAVE ANSWERED MY QUESTION. OKAY ANOTHER ONE TOO. ATTY; LET ME JUST GIVE YOU ANOTHER ONE OTHER REASON WHY YOU HAVE TO DO THAT. BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE EXPOSES YOU VERY SERIOUSLY TO OBJECTIONS OF PARTIALITY YOU WOULD HAVE NO RATIONAL BASIS TO TURN SOMEONE DOWN FOR A H.O.L. IF THEY SAY THEY ARE GOING TO STRICTLY COMPLY WITH THE RULES AND REGULATIONS OF H.O.L. SHORT OF SOME EVIDENCE THAT THEY HAVE ALREADY VIOLATED AND THEY ARE NOT DOING IT. SO THATS WHY I SAY ITS REALLY NOT DISCRETIONARY CAUSE EVEN IF THERE WAS SOME MANNER OF DISCRETION THERE YOU WOULD HAVE TO BASE IT ON SOMETHING AND NATURALLY THESE PEOPLE COME IN WITH H.O.L. PERMIT OR APPLICATIONS FOR PERMIT8, THEY SHOULD BE AFFIRMATIVELY REPRESENTING THAT THEY STRICTLY COMPLY WITH THE ORDINANCE. JIM; WELL THEY HAVE A COPY OF THE ORDINANCE THAT IS GIVEN TO THEM AND THEY SIGN A LITTLE THING THAT THEY HAVE READ THE ORDINANCE AND THEY WILL COMPLY. ATTY: THEY UNDERSTAND THE RULES AND THEY ARE GOING TO ABIDE. JIM: OKAY WELL YOU'VE ANSWERED MY QUESTION. ANOTHER ONE IS FLEXIBILITY, I KNOW WE HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT WITH OUR JUDGEMENT CALLS, BUT I TREAT EACH CASE ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE THIRTY AS LONG AS IT COMPLIES WITH THE CODE AND RULES OF THE CITY IF THERE IS A LITTLE VARIATION THERE THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE IN ORDER TO TAKE CARE OF OUR TAXPAYERS 8O TO SPEAK. IS THERE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. ATTY: ABSOLUTELY NOT. THATS YOUR FUNCTION. YOUR FUNCTION IS TO TAKE WHAT'S IN WRITING AND THEN TAKE THE REAL WORLD AND MAKE THE TWO MIX. AND WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS SIT DOWN. YES IF THE ORDINANCE SAYS IT WILL BE BLACK. WELL THEN YOU CANNOT SAY IT WILL BE WHITE BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH THE ORDINANCES, HOWEVER, IF THE CODE SAYS IT WILL BE A COLOR SUITABLE TO THE CITY. AND IN ONE SITUATION YOU GAY BLACK IS FINE AND IN ANOTHER SITUATION YOU SAY BLACK IS NO GOOD THATG PART OF YOUR DISCRETIONARY POWER. SO AS LONG AS YOUR NOT DEVIATING FROM THE CO[}E, THATS EASY TO GAY AND NOT EASY TO APPLY BUT THATS WHAT BOARDS HAVE TO DEAL WITH DAILY. TAKING AN IMPERFECT SYSTEM AND THE ORDINANCES AND APPLYING THEM AS BEST YOU CAN SO SURE DISCRETIONARY. YOU HAVE A LOT OF DISCRETION YOUR, THATS PART OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IF YOU READ WHAT A PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD DOES, YOU'LL GEE THAT THEY ARE SITTING THERE TO MAKE SURE IT CONFORMS TO THE GENERAL SCHEME OF DEVELOPMENT THATS PURE DISCRETION. BUT JUST MAKE SURE YOU DON"T DEVIATE FROM THE CODE. JIM: OKAY ONE LAST QUESTIONw, IN DEED RESTRICTED AREAS WHERE THE DEED RESTRICTIONS PROHIBIT HOME OCCUPATIONAL LICENSE BUT YET WE HAVE SOMEONE COME IN AND APPLY FOR A H.O.L. DOES THIS BOARD HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO REFUSE IT BASED ON THE DEED RESTRICTIONS ONLY. ATTY: NO - THAT IS PRIVATE LEGISLATION AND THE CITY HAS NO POWER TO ENFORCE IT. UNLESS SPECIFICALLY WITHIN OR THOSE DEED RESTRICTIONS SOMEHOW HAVE BEEN ADOPTED BY ORDINANCE - I HAVE SEEN THAT SOMETIMES WHERE A GET OF DEED RESTRICTIONS ARE ADOPTED BY ORDINANCE AND MADE A PART OF THE CITY`G ACTUAL LAWS. JIM; WELL THE DEVELOPER CAN'T COME BACK AT THIS BOARD AND TAKE ANY ACTION AGAINST UG IF WE HAVE ISSUED A H.O.L. IN A DEED RESTRICTED AREA. ATTY: NO NOT UNLESS IT HAS BEEN ADOPTED SOMEHOW AS ORDINANCE IN THE CITY. THAT IS A PRIVATE AGREEMENT A PRIVATE CONTRACT IS ALL THAT REALLY IS AND THE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION CAN TAKE ACTION AGAINST THOSE PEOPLE BUT NOT AGAINST THE CITY. YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO ENFORCE THOSE. JIM; OKAY THANK YOU DOES ANYBODY ELSE HAVE A QUESTION. -- EARL: YEA I GOT SOMETHING JIM. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING AUGUST 15, 1990 PAGE THIRTY ONE EARL: KIND OF IN RESPONSE TO WHAT YOU WERE SAYING TO THE HOME OCCUPATION ON PEOPLE WHO SAY ONE THING AND THEN END UP DOING SOMETHING ELSE. BASICALLY THAT DOES COME UNDER CODE ENFORCEMENT AND HAS TO BE HANDLED THROUGH THE CODE ENFORCEMENT BOARD AND THERE WAS A CAGE JUST RECENTLY OF A GENTLEMEN WHO WAS SITED FOR VIOLATING THE H.O"L. AND WAS SENT A LETTER FROM THE CITY MANAGER STATING THAT HE WOULD CEASE AND DESIST FROM VIOLATING. ATTY: THERE IS A LOT OF POWER WITH THIS HOME OCCUPATIONAL LICENSE TO HAVE THOSE THINGS REVOKED. THEY CAN BE REVOKED AT ANYTIME. ONCE YOU GIVE ONE OF THOSE ITS NOT GIVING SOMEONE UNBRIDLED LICENSE TO GO AHEAD RUN THIS H.O.L. IT IS ONLY GIVING PERMISSION TO DO WHAT STRICTLY COMPLIES WITH THE ORDINANCE. AND THEY CAN BE REVOKED VERY EASILY. JIM: OKAY ANY OTHER QUESTIONS. BILL: JUST ONE QUESTION HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT CONDITIONAL USES OR REMOVING THEM COMPLETELY FROM THE LAND DEVELOPMENT CODE. A MUNICIPALITY TO THE SOUTH OF US, VERO BEACH DECIDED TO TRY TO ELIMINATE ALL CONDITIONAL USES. ATTY: I THINK IT SOUNDS NICE IN THEORY BUT ITS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DO. I DON'T THINK IT IS A PRACTICAL IDEA. JIM: WELL RICK I WOULD LIKE TO PERSONALLY THANK YOU AND ALSO THANK YOU FROM THE BOARD YOU VISIT TONIGHT HAS CERTAINLY BEEN EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIVE TO ME AND I HAVE CERTAINLY LEARNED A LOT. AND I CERTAINLY THANK YOU FOR TAKING YOUR TIME TO COME DOWN AND EDUCATE UG. IF THERE ARE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, ILL ENTERTAIN A MOTION TO ADJOURN. TOMMIE: GO MOVED" MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:00 P.M. Prepared by Linda Kinchen, Secretary Approved by Planning and Zoning September 20, 1990. --