HomeMy WebLinkAbout11-26-2019 Executive Session / Special CC MinutesMLa
SERAS?LAN
HOME OF PELICAN ISLAND
SEBASTIAN CITY COUNCIL
MINUTES
SPECIAL MEETING
FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONVENING
ATTORNEY -CLIENT SESSION
NOVEMBER 26, 2019 — 5:01 PM
CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS
1225 MAIN STREET, SEBASTIAN, FLORIDA
Mayor Dodd called the Special Meeting to order at 6:00 p.m. A moment of
silence was held and the Pledge of Allegiance recited.
2. ROLL CALL
Mayor Ed Dodd
Vice Mayor Charles Mauti
Council Member Damien Gilliams
Council Member Jim Hill
Council Member Pamela Parris
Citv Staff Present:
City Manager Paul Carlisle
City Clerk Jeanette Williams
3. RECESS TO CONVENE ATTORNEY -CLIENT SESSION: In accordance with
FS286.011(8) request was made by City Attorney James D. Stokes at the
November 20, 2019 regular City Council meeting to hold an Attorney -Client
session to discuss pending litigation in regard to the case:
A. Pelican Island Audubon Societv. Graham Cox. and Donna Halleran v
City of Sebastian
The session will be held in the City Hall 2"" floor Conference Room.
ESTIMATED LENGTH OF SESSION: 1 1/2 Hours
NAMES OF PERSONS ATTENDING: Mayor Ed Dodd, Vice Mayor Charles
Mauti, Council Member Damien Gilliams, Council Member Jim Hill, Council
Member Pamela Parris, City Attorney James D. Stokes, Special Counsel Daniel
L. Abbott of Weiss Serota Hellman Cole & Bierman, P.L., City Manager Paul E.
Carlisle and a Certified Court Reporter
The City Attorney announced his request to hold the Attorney -Client Session on Case
No. 2019-AP-000142 with the above mentioned attendees and noted it was expected to
last two hours.
Special Meeting
Attorney -Client Session
November 26, 2019
Page Two
4. ADDITIONAL ATTORNEY -CLIENT SESSION: In accordance with FS286.011(8)
request was made by City Attorney James D. Stokes at the November 20, 2019
regular City Council meeting to hold an Attorney -Client session to discuss
pending litigation in regard to the case:
A. Sembler & Sembler. Inc. v. City of Sebastian
The session will be held in the City Hall 2nd floor Conference Room.
ESTIMATED LENGTH OF SESSION: 1/2 Hour
NAMES OF PERSONS ATTENDING: Mayor Ed Dodd, Vice Mayor Charles
Mauti, Council Member Damien Gilliams, Council Member Jim Hill, Council
Member Pamela Parris, City Attorney James D. Stokes, City Manager Paul E.
Carlisle and a Certified Court Reporter
The City Attorney announced his second request to hold the Attomey-Client Session on
Case No. 2019-CA-0000712 with the above mentioned attendees.
Mayor Dodd recessed the public meeting at 5:03 p.m. and everyone but the City Clerk
relocated to the 2" Floor Conference Room.
5. REOPENING OF PUBLIC MEETING TO ANNOUNCE TERMINATION OF ATTORNEY -
CLIENT SESSION
At 7:24 p.m. all attendees returned to the Council Chambers and Mayor Dodd announced
the adjournment of the Attorney -Client Session and reconvened the Special Meeting.
6. CITY ATTORNEY ORIENTATION
The City Attorney reminded Council that what was discussed in the prior meeting was
confidential until the litigation comes to conclusion.
He spoke regarding the requirements to adopt ordinances and resolutions; Council's three
roles as legislators, policy administrators and their judicial capacity. He said F.S.166
governs municipalities as well as the City's Charter which can be amended by referendum
or a court ruling.
He outlined the general powers and duties of the City Council; noting they set policy (as a
body) at the 30,000 foot level and hire charter officers to fulfill that policy. He noted it is up
to the City Manager to direct staff as opposed to one of them who might put the employee in
a bad position if they asked the employee to do something counter to the Manager's
directive.
He said the Public Records and Sunshine Law is very complex and invited them to call him
if they had any questions at all. He noted the most important thing to know about a public
record is the content of that record —if it is about City business, it's a City record. He advised
that If they use their personal device to transact City business and there is a request, it is
their responsibility to give those records.
Special Meeting
Attorney -Client Session
November 26, 2019
Page Three
7.48 pm
He said judges can issue an order to have them turn their phone over for inspection and the
best way they can protect their personal devices is to only use their City phones for City
business; and remember whenever they are writing something, think this might be attached
as an exhibit to court pleading and ask yourself if you really want to put It in writing.
Sunshine Law
The City Attorney advised individuals on same board cannot talk to each other about
something that will come to the board in the foreseeable future. He cautioned that the
definition of foreseeable could be a trap. He cited a past incident with the Pompano Beach
Sheriff who invited City Council out to breakfast and gave an update on policing services.
The State Attorney filed charges against the entire City Council stating the Sheriffs
performance was relevant to his contract that was up for renewal by the Council.
He also advised them to refrain from texting or whispering to each other during the Council
meetings.
He briefly mentioned the Sunshine Law also included a notice requirement, minutes to be
taken and relevant records must be available for public inspection.
Procurement Law
The City Manager introduced Ann Marie Fraser, CPPB, MBA, Procurement/Contracts
Manager, who distributed a NIGP: The Institute for Public Procurement Guide detailing what
goes into the government procurement process which looks out for the public's interest.
(See attached)
Ms. Fraser also distributed a packet of fors and processes that she has created for the
City to accompany staff purchases. (See attached) She outlined the procedures for all types
of purchases in extensive detail.
8.01 pm She described how she posts the City's bids on the City's website, the City's vendor registry
and DemandStar.com.
8rfopm
Ms. Fraser cautioned that purchases will not always be about price but will depend on the
industry and the City's needs; sometimes the cheapest will not always be the best value.
She extensively described the local vendor preference policy, solicitation process, selection
process and the Competitive Negotiation Act.
Mayor Dodd called for a break at 8:32 p.m. and reconvened the meeting at 8:37 p.m. All
members were present.
Mayor Dodd said when members are elected, each member has the right to attach items to
an agenda or bring it up under agenda modification or under their matters. The power then
shifts to the Council. The Council through deliberations may decide (with a majority vote) to
take an action on an item and when they lake the action they transfer the power from
Council to the City Manager to execute the action.
Special Meeting
Attorney -Client Session
November 26, 2019
Page Four
He asked the members to concentrate on bringing items to the group who transfers the
power to implement the item to the Charter Officers.
Council Member Parris said she promised citizens that they could be involved in a
spraying committee and she has a bid coming in even though she hasn't seen the City
Manager's proposal yet.
Mayor Dodd said this went along with what he just said. The power of Council doesn't
promise a citizen to be on a committee but bring the need, they believe exists, to Council
and the Council decides as a whole that they want to create a committee and those
responsibilities then fall to the City Clerk to staff the committee who will then bring back
a list of names back to the Council for appointment.
Council Member Parris said that she relayed to the citizens that a committee would be a
good idea. Mayor Dodd advised the Natural Resources Board is a good committee to
review the spraying.
7. Being no further business, Mayor Dodd adjourned the Special Meeting at 8:42 p.m.
Approved at the January 8, 2020 Regular City Council Meeting
Mayor Ed Dodd
ATTEST:
WCiler 2
4J,n&,ItM,W,1'fiImI, MMC - -Cityy Clerk
CITY OF SEBASTIAN
SEBASTIAN CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING
FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONVENING
ATTORNEY -CLIENT SESSION
CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS
1225 MAIN STREET, SEBASTIAN, FLORIDA
NOVEMBER, 26, 2019
7:05 p.m.
G1777T7nTGM9
ED DODD, Mayor
CHARLES MAUTI, Vice Mayor
PAUL CARLISLE, City Manager
JIM HILL, Council Member
DAMIEN GILLIAMS, Council Member
PAMELA PARRIS, Council Member
JAMES STOKES, City Attorney
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
2
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD:
MR. STOKES: We are on to a new case. This one
I don't think any of you have seen, so I wanted to
give copies of the complaint, mostly of because of
the attachments that exist on it.
This case is against Sembler & Sembler, Inc.
This is a situation that dates back, actually, a
couple managers. But I got involved with it with
Joe Griffin back in the day, because this is down
there where we put in the new bathrooms, new public
bathrooms, and we put in a lift station. At the
time across the street there was an open ditch that
ran east and west, crossed under the roadway. There
was a catch basin there, and then there was a pipe
that went out into the river there. And what Joe
did is he put an underground pipe. Instead of the
open ditch, he put an underground pipe.
The understanding at the time that it was north
of the property line, along the property line. It
turned out that it was partially on Sembler's
property or right along the property line.
Actually, it was kind of at an angle. So it kind of
hit both. Correct me if I get any of these facts
wrong.
The catch basin that was on east side of the
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
to
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
roadway was replaced with a baffle box in order to
keep stuff from going into the river, to catch any
debris or trash or whatever.
At the time Mr. Sembler approached Joe wanting
to tie into the lift station so that he could
develop that property. Joe had worked out an
agreement with him to allow --
MS. PARRIS: With Charlie?
MR. STOKES: With Charlie Sembler. And then,
of course, that was right about the time Joe Griffin
was leaving, and it was never executed. A new
manager came on board. It just sat for a long time,
because nobody did anything with it, and then the
back and forth started.
I guess you can speak more, because you were
involved in that. But, basically, at this point in
time, Charlie Sembler is saying that he is not going
to recognize that easement.
You know, the city considers it a drainage
easement. It's been there. The attachments are all
in there. But it's been there. We've got documents
and maps back to the '40s.
MR. MAUTI: So it's a prescriptive easement?
MR. STOKES: It's a prescriptive easement. So
that's what we filed for, was prescriptive easement
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
3
4
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
s
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1e
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
on this.
I have heard from Mr. Sembler's attorney, Steve
Henderson that he is using, that he's okay giving us
the easement. And we'll actually record an
easement. But, initially, he said that he wanted, I
think it was $30,000 for the easement. And then we
floated the idea of we're going ahead and signing
the agreement in order to let him connect to the
lift station. Might be a compensation for the
easement and all that.
So that's kind of where we're at right now.
They have not filed a response yet, because we've
kind of got the whole thing on hold while we met
with you and tried to work this out. And,
obviously, Mr. Carlisle can fill in the blanks or
explain more on this.
MR. MAUTI: Do we have documentation that there
was a prescriptive easement there?
MR. STOKES: Well, prescriptive easement, by
its nature, is never recorded anywhere. But we do
have --
MR. MAUTI: On paper.
MR. STOKES: We have maps that show it back,
like I said, to the '40s that show the line.
And, also, Mr. Sembler bought the property
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
5
1 right about 20 years ago. I think it was like 1988,
2 1989. And just before he closed on it, he submitted
3 an application. Because at that time it ended at
4 the baffle box and it was an open drain reservoir,
5 and he wanted to put an underground pipe there. So
6 he got a permit to connect to that baffle box and he
7 filed it before -- go ahead.
8 MR. CARLISLE: So it was an open pipe under
9 Indian River Drive the city owned and maintained.
10 The ditch conveyance along his property and boarded
11 our property, the parking lot across from
12 Fisherman's Landing. It was a joint -use drainage
13 conveyance, open conveyance. It was an open culvert
14 pipe under Indian River Drive that the city had been
15 maintaining since as long as it had been there.
16 Mr. Sembler connected his catch space into our
17 pipe and extended it through his property out to the
18 intracoastal waterway and filled in that open
19 conveyance. The city went and got a grant. This
20 was back in '89 when all that happened.
21 So he acknowledged our access by connecting our
22 pipe to his pipe, our argument it is. But when he
23 set that catch space and then connected our pipe to
24 his system, even though we had an open conveyance
25 originally, we had a prescriptive right to use it.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
n
1
2
3
9
5
6
8
9
to
11
12
13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
29
25
He further acknowledged that we had a right to
discharge there by him connecting to our
infrastructure.
The city taking a grant from St. Johns Water
Management, a 50/50 grant, I don't know what the
exact amount was, to install that pollution and
nitrogen baffle box in the exact location of where
the catch basin was.
The original plan showing it being out to
closer to Indian River Drive, but that wouldn't work
because it obstructed the sidewalk. So then city
manager, then the city attorney at that time, moved
it to the exact location where the existing catch
basin that Mr. Sembler put in.
Furthermore, we went in and filled in the ditch
along Sembler's property and the Fisherman's Landing
parking lot, which further enhanced his property.
He had submitted a plan in 2008 to do exactly what
we did, to fill in that ditch and pipe it and to put
in the drainage structures. We did it with a grant
from St. Johns Water Management. When they set the
last three catch spaces, they veer from 6 inches to
a foot -and -a -half onto his property outside of our
property line, but we always had access to that open
ditch as part of our conveyance. We've always used
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
a
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
19
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
that since we got maps that go back into the '40s to
drain that property.
So we feel very confident that we have a
prescriptive easement through that property. So the
baffle box was relocated. Mr. Sembler said, I want
that baffle box moved off my property.
I was now the city manager. I said, we can't
move it off your property. Something else we can
do? I'll be happy to move those other three. I
need you to sign, there's an easement agreement for
me to access your property to move those three catch
basins.
He said, I'm not signing. I'm not doing it.
You can't come on my property to move your basins
off of my property. I'm not signing it unless you
do it all.
Then the city council, they advised us. We
advised them of all the options. We can do a
taking. We can do an eminent domain. But the most
prudent was the prescriptive easement. We believe
we have the right, prescriptive easement. So we
directed the city attorney to file on the
prescriptive easement.
Mr. Sembler, I guess through his attorney,
reached out to us to kind of raise right back to
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
7
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1e
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
where we started: We'll allow you to hook up to the
lift station if you'll allow the baffle box to stay,
the easements to stay. So we're kind of right back
to where we started in the beginning.
What we're waiting on now is the information
from the engineer on capacity for the lift station
so we can answer his attorney's question of what
available capacity is in that lift station.
To give you an example of one that I did since
I was here was the Grisham property, the three
parcels that are for sale on US1 behind the old
hotel. We did an agreement with him to access our
lift station to get him off septic, and we provided
a $46,000 in grants to help him close his.
So we've been consistent allowing people to tie
into our lift stations' capacities there. So if we
can make that successful, I think that's a win -win.
MR. DODD: Comments?
MR. HILL: I agree. If we can keep this out of
court, I mean, there's no need to take this to
court. If we can already come up with something
that was agreed upon originally, I think that's what
we should do.
MS. PARRIS: It sounds reasonable to me.
MR. MAUTI: What else does he want? What is he
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
6
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
looking for?
MR. STOKES: Like I said, his offer was
originally at 30,000. We went back and proposed the
connection, because we knew that's what he wanted.
His attorney said that Charlie Sembler is kind
okay with that. He just wants to make sure that the
capacity is there and everything. But they haven't
accepted it yet. So I would expect that they'll
come back and probably say, yeah, we want to
connect, but we want 10,000, you know what I mean?
Or his attorney fees paid or something.
So, I mean, I don't know what they're going to
come back with. He might just come back and be
happy connecting. Because that's originally what he
wanted. Even back when he was dealing with Joe
Griffin, he wanted to connect to that lift station,
because that adds value to his property.
MR. CARLISLE: If I may, Mr. Mayor? We have a
pretty good understanding of what it costs. It's
about $33,000, is what we've been seeing, to connect
a lift station into the force main, to put in a new
lift station, connect it to the force main,
depending on where it is. They've been running them
in some of the grafts we've been seeing, about 30 to
33,000. So allowing -- and they're different
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
z
10
1
2
3
Ell
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
depending on where they are. Distance to run, all
of things play into effect. But it may be, I mean,
it's may be a wash, if you're going connect without
having to spend the money.
MR. HILL: There's nothing out of our pockets.
We've already got the lift station in place. It's
not going to cost the city anything. He'll get the
benefit without having any cash out of pocket.
MR. CARLISLE: We'll have an agreement for
maintenance and repairs should he connect. And
something he does, damages, the responsible party
will pay for the repairs.
MR. STOKES: That's our standard agreement.
MR. DODD: What do you think?
MR. MAUTI: I say keep it out of the courts.
MR. DODD: Damien?
MR. GILLIAMS: What was the total amount of
money the city had invested in improving the
drainage there?
MR. CARLISLE: I don't have that exact dollar
figure. Again, don't quote me on this, I think it
was somewhere in the neighborhood of $250,000 was
what we -- I'm thinking it was somewhere in that
neighborhood.
MR. MAUTI: For that whole project?
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1
2
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
29
25
MR. CARLISLE: For the whole project. Not the
bathrooms, not the lift station. I'm talking just
the storm drain.
MR. GILLIAMS: Storm drain. Putting a pipe in
there, filling it over 250,000. Was that on the --
that went through CRA? Did that go through -- was
that a handshake with Joe?
MR. CARLISLE: It was before me.
MR. MAUTI: It was Joe Griffin.
MR. GILLIAMS: So what does the records show?
Did that go through the CRA, do we know?
MR. CARLISLE: Well, the city council would
have had to approve it, because it would have
gone --
MR. DODD: It would have been done through the
CRA.
MR. CARLISLE: Because you have to accept the
grant from St. Johns, you have to administer the
funds. It would have had to go through council.
MR. DODD: It would have been a CRA.
MR. CARLISLE: Quasi CRA.
MR. GILLIAMS: So you think it was matching
money from St. Johns on that as well?
MR. CARLISLE: It was. In fact, to give you,
Mr. Sembler filed a complaint with St. Johns to try
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
11
12
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
to get us to acquiesce. I met with St. Johns with
the city attorney and explained to them what we were
doing. And they were fine with our process that we
were going to do to try to work it out and get that
done.
So if we couldn't work it out, they would want
their money back, if they put it into the project.
MR. GILLIAMS: So the city and St. Johns has
got a $250,000 investment to --
MR. DODD: That was part. And I wasn't on the
council then, but we did three or four baffle boxes.
And we had a grant from St. Johns to do three or
four baffle boxes down through there. I think that
was done at the same time that other work was done.
They replaced several different setups with baffle
boxes.
So I don't know that that $250,000 was just
that piece. It might have been that whole thing.
MR. CARLISLE: No, I think it was just that
section. We did it in sections. There's different
baffle boxes that the city put in to help reduce the
pollutants going into the intracoastal waterway,
which is a good thing. So we tied a DOT discharge
off of US1, if I remember correctly. Again, all of
this is prior to my tenure. But to stop the
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
a
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
pollutants coming off of US1 and going into --
MR. GILLIAMS: The intracoastal.
MR. CARLISLE: -- the intracoastal waterway.
So, you know, it's not only just trash, it's
nutrient filters, which we keep in stock to keep
those changed.
MR. GILLIAMS: So he's looking for us to help
him connect to the lift station there?
MR. CARLISLE: He's not asking us to help him.
We're allowing him connect at his cost.
MR. GILLIAMS: At his cost?
MR. CARLISLE: At his cost.
MR. HILL: Asa settlement for us putting the
baffle box on his property.
MR. CARLISLE: Partially on his property.
MR. MAUTI: We also have the so-called
prescription easement to file on.
MR. CARLISLE: Well, it would have to file a
prescription easement. Because if he accepts the
offer of the lift station, we'll have a dedicated.
MR. DODD: And he's going to want to develop
that. Because the last time he had a development
order put together on that piece of property, he was
going to have to do quite a bit of work with storm
water drainage. That's when that pond was still
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
13
14
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
la
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
there. That was before all that stuff was done. He
was going to have to do quite a bit. This will save
him money on developing that property also.
MR. HILL: Mr. Mayor, I would ask that the city
attorney and the city manager continue the process
and see if they can come up with an agreement that
is amicable. Stay out of court and save us money.
MR. DODD: Does anybody have a problem with
that?
MS. PARRIS: I'm confident Charlie will
be agreeable.
MR. DODD: So go forward with it?
MR. MAUTI: I say go forward.
MR. CARLISLE: If there's any changes, we can
always have we have another executive session. We
will have to settle it if there's any changes.
MR. DODD: Thank you.
MR. STOKES: So the close session is closed.
(The proceedings concluded at 7:19 p.m.)
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CERTIFICATE
I, CYNTHIA O'CAIN, a Shorthand Reporter and
Notary Public of the State of Florida at large certify
that I was authorized to stenographically report the
foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a true
and complete record of my stenographic notes.
DATED this 30th day of December, 2019.
CYNTHIA O'CAIN
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
15
A
acceptll:17
accepted 9:8
accepts13:19
access5:21
6:24 7:11 8:12
acknowledged
5:21 6:1
acquiesce 12:1
adds9:17
administer
11:18
advised 7:17,18
ago 5:1
agree 8:19
agreeable 14:11
agreed 8:22
agreement 3:7
4:8 7:10 8:12
10:9,13 14:6
ahead4:7 5:7
allow3:7 8:1,2
allowing 8:15
9:25 13:10
amicable 14:7
amount 6:6
10:17
angle 2:22
answer8:7
anybody14:8
APPEARANCES
1:11
application 5:3
approached3:4
approve 11:13
argument 5:22
asking 13:9
attachments
2:5 3:20
attorney 1:18
4:2 6:12 7:22
7:24 9:5,11
12:2 14:5
attorney's8:7
ATTORNEY-C...
1:4
authorized 15:6
available8:8
B
back 2:7,9 3:14
3:22 4:23 5:20
7:1,25 8:3 9:3
9:9,13,13,15
12:7
baffle 3:1 5:4,6
6:7 7:5,6 8:2
12:11,13,15,21
13:14
basically 3:16
basin 2:14,25
6:8,14
basins 7:12,14
bathrooms 2:10
2:11 11:2
beginning 8:4
believe 7:20
benefit 10:8
bit 13:24 14:2
blanks 4:15
board 3:12
boarded 5:10
bought4:25
box3:1 5:4,6
6:7 7:5,6 8:2
13:14
boxes 12:11,13
12:16,21
C
C 15:1,1
capacities 8:16
capacity 8:6,8
9:7
Carlisle 1:14
4:15 5:8 9:18
10:9,20 11:1,8
11:12,17,21,24
12:19 13:3,9
13:12,15,18
14:14
case 2:2,6
cash 10:8
catch 2:14,25
3:2 5:16,23
6:8,13,22 7:11
certify 15:5
CHAMBERS 1:5
changed13:6
changes14:14
14:16
CHARLES 1:13
Charlie 3:8,9,17
9:5 14:10
city 1:1,2,5,14
1:18 3:19 5:9
5:14,19 6:4,11
6:12 7:7,17,22
10:7,18 11:12
12:2,8,21 14:4
14:5
close 8:14 14:18
closed 5:2 14:18
closer6:10
come 7:14 8:21
9:9,13,13 14:6
coming 13:1
Comments 8:18
compensation
4:9
complaint 2:4
11:25
complete 15:8
concluded 14:19
confident 7:3
14:10
connect4:8 5:6
9:10,16,20,22
10:3,10 13:8
1310
connected 5:16
5:23
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
connecting 5:21
6:2 9:14
connection 9:4
considers 3:19
consistent 8:15
continue 14:5
CONVENING 1:3
conveyance
5:10,13,13,19
5:24 6:25
copies2:4
Correct 2:23
correctly 12:24
cost 10:7 13:10
13:11,12
costs9:19
council 1:2,5,15
1:16,17 7:17
11:12,19 12:11
couple 2:8
course 3:10
court8:20,21
14:7
courts 10:15
CRA 11:6,11,16
11: 20, 21
crossed 2:13
culvert 5:13
CYNTHIA 15:4
15:14
D
damages 50:11
Damien 1:16
10:16
DATED 15:11
dates2:7
day 2:9 15:11
dealing 9:15
debris 3:3
December 15:11
dedicated 13:20
depending 9:23
10:1
develop 3:6
13:21
developing 14:3
development
13:22
different 9: 25
12:15,20
directed 7:22
discharge 6:2
12:23
Distance 10:1
ditch 2:12,17
5:10 6:15,19
6:25
documentation
4:17
documents 3:21
DODD 1:12 8:18
10:14,16 11:15
11:20 12:10
13:21 14:8,12
14:17
doing 7:13 12:3
dollar 10:20
domain 7:19
DOT 12:23
drain 5:4 7:2
11:3,4
drainage 3:19
5:12 6:20
10:19 13:25
Drive 5:9,14
6:10
E 15:1,1
easement 3:18
3:20,23,24,25
4:4,5,6,10,18
4:19 7:4,10,20
7:21,23 13:17
13:19
easements 8:3
east2:13,25
ED 1:12
effect 10:2
eminent 7:19
ended 5:3
engineer8:6
enhanced 6:17
exact6:6,7,13
10:20
exactly 6:18
example 8:9
executed 3:11
executive 14:15
exist 2:5
existing 6:13
expect 9:8
explain 4:16
explained 12:2
extended 5:17
F 15:1
fact 11:24
facts 2:23
feel7:3
fees 9:11
figure 10:21
file7:22 13:17
13:18
filed 3:25 4:12
5:7 11:25
fill4:15 6:19
filled 5:18 6:15
filling 11:5
filters 13:5
fine 12:3
Fisherman's
5:12 6:16
floated 4:7
Florida 1:6 15:5
FOLLOWING 2:1
foot -and -a -half
6:23
force 9:21,22
foregoing 15:7
forth 3:14
forward 14:12
14:13
four12:11,13
funds 11:19
further 6:1,17
Furthermore
6:15
G
GILLIAMS 1:16
10:17 11:4,10
11:22 12:8
13:2,7,11
give 2:4 8:9
11:24
giving 4:3
go 5:7 7:1 11:6
11:11,19 14:12
14:13
going 3:2,17 4:7
9:12 10:3,7
12:4,22 13:1
13:21,24 14:2
good 9:19 12:23
grafts 9: 24
grant5:19 6:4,5
6:20 11:18
12:12
grants 8:14
Griffin 2:9 3:10
9:16 11:9
Grisham 8:10
guess3:15 7:24
H
handshake11:7
happened 5:20
happy7:9 9:14
He'll 10:7
heard 4:2
help 8:14 12:21
13:7,9
Henderson 4:3
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
HILL 1:15 8:19
10:5 13:13
14:4
hit 2:23
hold 4:13
hook8:1
hotel 8:12
I
idea 4:7
improving 10:18
inches6:22
Indian 5:9,14
6:10
information 8:5
infrastructure
6:3
initially4:5
install6:6
intracoastal
5:18 12:22
13:2,3
invested 10:18
investment 12:9
involved 2:8
3:16
]AMES 1:18
JIM 1:15
Joe2:9,15 3:4,6
3:10 9:15 11:7
11:9
Johns 6:4,21
11:18,23,25
12:1,8,12
joint -use 5:12
K
keep 3:2 8:19
10:15 13:5,5
kind 2:22,22
4:11,13 7:25
8:3 9:5
knew 9:4
know3:19 6:5
9:10,12 11:11
12:17 13:4
L
Landing 5:12
6:16
large 15:5
leaving 3:11
lift2:11 3:5 4:9
8:2,6,8,13,16
9:16,21,22
10:6 11:2 13:8
13:20
line 2:19,19,21
4:24 6:24
location 6:7,13
long 3:12 5:15
looking 9:1 13:7
lot5:11 6:17
M
main 1:6 9:21
9:22
maintained 5:9
maintaining
5:15
maintenance
10:10
Management
6:5,21
manager 1:14
3:12 6:12 7:7
14:5
managers 2:8
maps 3:22 4:23
7:1
matching 11:22
MAUTI 1:13
3:23 4:17,22
8:25 10:15,25
11:9 13:16
14:13
Mayor 1:12,13
9:18 14:4
mean 8:20 9:10
9:12 10:2
MEETING 1:2
Member 1:15,16
1:17
met4:13 12:1
money 10:4,18
11:23 12:7
14:3,7
move 7:8,9,11
7:14
moved 6:12 7:6
N
nature 4:20
need 7:10 8:20
neighborhood
10:22,24
never 3:11 4:20
new 2:2,10,10
3:11 9:21
nitrogen 6:7
north 2:18
Notary 15:5
notes 15:8
NOVEMBER 1:7
nutrient 13:5
O
O'CAIN 15:4,14
obstructed 6:11
obviously 4:15
offer9:2 13:20
okay4:3 9:6
old 8:11
open 2:12,17
5:4,8,13,13,18
5:24 6:24
options 7:18
order 3:1 4:8
13:23
original6:9
originally 5:25
8:22 9:3,14
outside 6: 23
owned 5:9
p.m 1:8 14:19
paid 9:11
PAMELA 1:17
paper4:22
parcels 8:11
parking 5:11
6:17
PARRIS 1:17
3:8 8:24 14:10
part6:25 12:10
partially 2: 20
13:15
party 10:11
PAUL 1:14
pay 10:12
people 8:15
permit 5:6
piece 12:18
13:23
pipe 2:14,16,17
5:5,8,14,17,22
5:22,23 6:19
11:4
place 10:6
plan 6:9,18
play 10:2
pocket10:8
pockets 10:5
point3:16
pollutants 12:22
13:1
pollution 6:6
pond 13:25
prescription
13:17,19
prescriptive
3:23,24,25
4:18,19 5:25
7:4,20,21,23
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
pretty 9:19
prior12:25
probably 9:9
problem 14:8
proceedings 2: 1
14:19 15:7
process12:3
14:5
project 10:25
11:1 12:7
property2:19
2:19,21,21 3:6
4:25 5:10,11
5:17 6:16,17
6:23,24 7:2,4,6
7-811,14,15
8.16 9:17
13:14,15,23
14:3
proposed 9:3
provided 8:13
prudent7:20
public2:10 15:5
PURPOSE 1:3
put 2:10,11,16
2:17 5:5 6:14
6:19 9:21 12:7
12:21 13:23
putting 11:4
13:13
Q
Quasi11:21
question 8:7
quite 13:24 14:2
quote 10:21
R
R 15:1
raise 7:25
ran 2:13
reached 7:25
reasonable 8:24
recognize 3:18
record 4:4 15:8
recorded 4:20
records11:10
reduce12:21
relocated 7:5
remember
12:24
repairs 10:10,12
replaced 3:1
12:15
report 15:6
Reporter15:4
reservoir 5:4
response4:12
responsible
10:11
right2:21 3:10
4:11 5:1,25
6:1 7:21,25
8:3
river2:15 3:2
5:9,14 6:10
roadway 2:13
3:1
run 10:1
running 9:23
S
sale 8:11
sat 3:12
save 14:2,7
saying 3:17
SEBASTIAN 1:1
1:2,6
section 12:20
sections 12:20
see 14:6
seeing 9:20,24
seen 2:3
Sembler 2:6,6
3:4,9,17 4:25
5:16 6:14 7:5
7:24 9:5 11:25
Sembler's 2: 20
4:2 6:16
septic 8:13
session 1:4
14:15,18
set5:23 6:21
settle 14:16
settlement
13:13
setups12:15
Shorthand 15:4
show 4:23, 24
11:10
showing 6:9
side 2:25
sidewalk 6:11
sign 7:10
signing4:7 7:13
7:15
situation 2:7
so-called 13:16
sounds8:24
space 5:16,23
spaces6:22
speak3:15
SPECIALI:2
spend10:4
St6:4,21 11:18
11:23,25 12:1
12:8,12
standard 10:13
started 3:14 8:1
8:4
State 15:5
station 2:11 3:5
4:9 8:2,6,8113
9:16,21,22
10:6 11:2 13:8
13:20
stations' 8:16
stay 8:2,3 14:7
stenographic
15:8
stenographic...
15:6
Steve 4:2
stock13:5
STOKES 1:18
2:2 3:9,24
4:19,23 9:2
10:13 14:18
stop 12:25
storm 11:3,4
13:24
street 1:6 2:12
structures 6:20
stuff3:2 14:1
submitted 5:2
6:18
successful8:17
sure 9:6
system 5:24
T
T 15:1,1
take 8:20
talking 11:2
tenure12:25
Thank14:17
thing 4:13 12:18
12:23
things 10:2
think 2:3 4:6
5:1 8:17,22
10:14,21 11:22
12:13,19
thinking 10:23
three 6:22 7:9
7:11 8:10
12:11,12
tie 3:5 8:15
tied 12:23
time2:12,18 3:4
3:10,12,17 5:3
6:12 12:14
13:22
total 10:17
transcript 15:7
trash 3:3 13:4
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
tried 4:14
true 15:7
try 11:25 12:4
turned 2:20
U
underground
2:16,17 5:5
understanding
2:18 9:19
US18:11 12:24
13:1
use 5:25
V
value 9:17
veer6:22
Vice 1:13
W
waiting 8:5
want 7:5 8:25
9:9110 12:6
13:21
wanted 2:3 4:5
5:5 9:4,15,16
wanting 3:4
wants 9:6
wash 10:3
wasn't 12:10
water 6:4,21
13:25
waterway 5:18
12:22 13:3
we'll4:4 8:1
10:9 13:20
we're 4:7,11 8:3
8,5 13,10
we've 3:21 4:12
6:25 8:15 9:20
9:24 10:6
went2:15 5:19
6:15 9:3 11:6
west 2:13
win -win 8:17
work4:14 6:10 66:22
12:4,6,14
13:24 7
worked 3:6 7:05 1:8
wouldn't6:10 7:1914:19
wrong 2:24 8
x 89 5:20
y
yeah 9:9
years 5:1
10,000 9:10
12251:6
1988 5:1
1989 5:2
2
20 5:1
2008 6:18
20191:7 15:11
250,00010:22
11:5 12:9,17
261:7
3
30 9:24
30,0004:6 9:3
30th 15:11
33,000 9:20,25
4
40s 3:22 4:24
7:1
46,000 8:14
5
50/50 6:5
6
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
Administrative Services Department
Procurement D mion
a 0.
Ol
a
ana
NQtIF Ci VElIC.4V ISIAYe
ANN-MARIE FRASER, CPPB, MBA
Procurement/Contracts Manager
afraser@cityofsebastian.org 1 772-388-823I
NIGR The Institute for Public Procurement /nigp.org
FAkI
The Public Procurement Guide
for Elected and Senior Government Officials
L91111ft J
jl���ill�l II
® 1 1
Quick Reference: Top 10 Things to Know About Procurement ..................... 1
Role of Elected Officials in the Procurement Process ............................ 4
Ethics......................................................................5
What is Procurement Authority and Why is it Important to an Organization? ....... 8
The Strategic Value of Procurement ........................................... 9
Important Procurement Values and Principles ................................. 12
Private v. Public Procurement: Differences and Similarities ...................... 14
Typical Procurement Methods and Key Exceptions to Competition ............... 16
Emergency Management and Continuity of Operations ......................... 19
The Political Policy Issue of Privatization ....................................... 19
Social Policy and Contracting Preferences .................................... 20
The purpose of this guide is to help elected and senior government officials understand how
public procurement can help achieve their goals or get their entity into trouble, and which
aspects of procurement deserve management attention. It is written from the perspective of a
seasoned public executive mentoring other executives new to the public sector on what is
worth knowing about public procurement.
If you'd like to provide NIGP feedback about this guide, recommend revisions or have questions
about the principles and practices discussed herein, contact us at NIGPGuide@nigp.org.
Quick Reference:
Top 10 Things to Know About Procurement
1 What is your role in the professionals strategically train. monitor and delegate the
procurement process? ability to handle most ordinary transactions to others
'A throughout the entity.
Be involved in determining the business need, defining the
context and background for others, defining the desired
performance outcomes, and securing the budget necessary
to achieve those outcomes. Then decide on your needed
level of personal oversight and engagement while your
procurement professionals design and implement the
procurement methods for achieving best value and navigate
the legal and ethical landscape. Rely on their professional
skills and advice. Depending on your governing
arrangements, you may or may not be tasked with making a
final procurement approval decision.
Tip: Review your entity's procurement policy to
confirm the extent of your procurement authority and
* role in the contracting process.
2 Ethics 1%
-
Staying on the Right Side.
Some of your day-to-day activities may touch on ethical
issues in procurement. Require your procurement
professionals to orient you to the conduct, situations,
relationships or conflicts of interest that could negatively
affect the procurement process, or be perceived by the
public as unethical. Declare any conflicts of interest at the
beginning of any procurement/contracting-related activity
you may be involved with: be conservative and recuse
yourself when appropriate. Lead and foster a culture of high
ethical standards for public procurement in your entity.
Tip: Ethical behavior in public procurement is grounded
in fairness and consistency in all procurement -related
■ relationships, processes and actions. Avoid even the
appearance of impropriety or favoritism.
L3 Procurement Authority -
Why is it important to me?
Best practice is to put all procurement processes under the
authority of a Chief Procurement Officer(s) who possesses
enough independence to ensure good checks and balances.
Who gets to make final procurement processes strongly
affects how business decisions are made and the quality of
the results you get from procurements, so it is important to
use people that have professional training in procurement.
Large entities may benefit by employing separate CPOs for
specialty areas such as Construction or Information
Technology. Most entities should establish centralized units
for procurement expertise to develop policy and strategy.
coordinate purchasing expenditures to gain greater value,
and handle complex purchases directly. In turn, procurement
Tip: Organizatiowl structum should place Procurement as
an independent function on thesame plane as Finance and
1p Legal, with all expected to contribute ata similarly high level.
4 What is the strategic value of
procurement to a public entity?A
As a maturing profos,on, procurement has become a broader
and more sophisticated discipline that can help your entity
thrive if allowed and tasked to do so. In most public entities,
spend under procurement authority is second only to
expenditures related to salaries and benefits. Procurement has
a visibility into the breadth of organizational operations,
resource requirements and contractual relationships that lends
a unique perspective and strong information base from which
a Chief Procurement Officer can contribute to development
and achievement of the organization's strategic plan. Wise
executives recognize that when procurement is empowered
and required to play a strategic role, those professionals can
help erase siloed organizational behavior and revise processes
to make more fully informed business decisions, achieve
coordinated savings and reduce unnecessary purchases
across the entity, reduce risks, bring market intelligence to
bear on strategies, achieve best value for dollars expended,
and maintain integrity. The world of commerce has become
much more complex and sophisticated and government
cannot afford any antiquated procurement thinking or
outmoded processes.
Tip: Expect your chief procurement officer to contribute
to strategic and operational planning conversations,
w serving as one ofyour internal business advisors.
AM
5 Procurement Values
and Principles.
Effective public procurement is grounded in the key values
of Transparency. Accountability, Ethics, Impartiality, Service,
and Professionalism, but your procurements will be effective
only if your entity knows how to implement those values.
These values and the principles that flow from them
determine how your suppliers and contractors treat your
entity, and they affect how the press and public and other
government partners treat your entity. Be in the newspaper
for achieving good results through effective procurement,
not procurement mistakes.
Tip: Require your procurement professionals to ensure
your entity makes progress along a spectrum of
V procurement professionalism.
6 How is public procurement different
L
from private sector procurement?
Two key differences: transparency and complexity. First,
public procurement is founded on the near universal
codified principle of fully advertised, open and fair
competition, with only limited exceptions. The private
sector is generally free to follow whatever methods it
chooses; competitive or not, transparent or not. Second,
private sector purchasing is simple in the sense that it all
boils down to contributions to the organization's profit,
notwithstanding any secondary social responsibility
goals. In contrast, public procurement is not based on
one primary measure and almost always has to balance
multiple goals that are often in conflict: speed, low price,
quality outcomes, level playing field, social and
environmental goals, public transparency and
accountability. This is a much more complex work
environment.
Tip: The operating environments for private sector
organizations and public sector entities may seem
U similar, but the underlying law and the accountability
standards for procurement are not the same. Do not
make the mistake of applying private sector standards to
public sector procurement obligations.
d,Yr 7 Procurement Methods.
hM
If you are involved in procurement decisions, you will
want to understand the basic methods for getting what
the entity needs; procurement process is not simple or
"one -size -fits -all;" Most procurement methods rely on
public competition, and are tied to dollar thresholds. The
higher the value, the more formal and fully open the
procurement, and the more likely that multiple factors
will contribute to the'award decision, not just lowest
cost. Emergencies and true sole -source situations are
typical exceptions from competition. The legislative trend
is toward creating laws that grant procurement
professionals more flexibility to create and implement
innovative and intelligent contractor selection methods
and contract arrangements, rather than prescribing
overly specific "recipes" within statute or code. Within all
the procurement methods, seemingly minor details and
decisions can have a profound impact on the outcomes
of the procurement, highlighting the need for your entity
to possess strong procurement expertise.
Tip: Seek out procurement professionals with
nationally recognized procurement -related
certifications. Examples: CPPO, CPPB, CPSM C.P.M.
U,� 8 Emergency Management and
1 *� L Continuity of Operations.
These topics are among your bask managament
responsibilities. Remember that procurement offices can
help you - they have an important role in disaster
preparedness, and in supporting the logistics of disaster
recovery efforts for emergency events such as severe
storms, floods, fires, epidemics, and crime events.
Tip: Involve procurement professionals in your
continuity of operations plans.
09 The issue of Privatization.
Is outsourcing (using the private sector to deliver
government services) or privatization (turning over
public functions completely to the private sector) a good
idea? Public -Private Partnerships, Outsourcing, and
Privatization can be controversial, but can be smart
choices under the right circumstances. Any decision to
follow one of these avenues should assess all tradeoffs
and demonstrate net value to the public, and all
drawbacks and challenges should be well -addressed
during early planning.
Tip: Procurement professionals must be included in
outsourcing decisions because they have key skills and
tools for analyzing the positive and negative issues.
10 The issue of Social Policy
and Contracting Preferences
Procurement officials should make doing business with
the government easily accessible to all interest groups. A
live issue is whether public procurement should go
further, to advance several possible categories of social
policies. For instance, public procurement can be an
effective catalyst for spurring specific complimentary
economic development, and for advancing
environmental/sustainability goals, and procurement
professionals can advise on the best means for
implementing chosen policy goals. Trying to provide an
economic boost to local businesses through "buy local"
requirements (such as mandating they receive a scoring
preference) deserves caution -there is no good research
to confirm whether such favoritism works or whether the
benefits outweigh the costs. Local preferences can be
politically and technically hard to implement and
administer, and retaliatory "reciprocal preferences" from
other jurisdictions may hurt your businesses more than
they are helped.
Tip: Procurement professionals must be included in
decisions on social policies and contracting
preferences because they have key information on
the positive and negative issues.
If you are interested by the issues above and wish to drill deeper for pragmatic advice, an expanded version of each
issue is presented in the following sections. Use these issues as conversation starters with your procurement
professionals about actions your entity should take.
NIGR The Institute for Public Procurement
The Public Procurement Guide
for Elected and Senior Government Officials
The purpose of this guide is to help elected and senior government officials understand how public procurement can
help achieve their goals or get their entity into trouble, and which aspects of procurement deserve management
attention. It is written from the perspective of a seasoned public executive mentoring other executives new to the
public sector on what is worth knowing about public procurement.
Copyright 2016. NIGP: The Institute for Public Procurement. All rights reserved.
ISBN 978-1-932315-52-3
1. Role of elected officials in the procurement process
The Highly Abridged Version:
Hire the best procurement professionals and, wherever feasible, use them to handle all
procurement functions possible.
Your current procurement rules and procedures may call for you to make certain decisions
during the procurement process. In a smaller community you may have the responsibility for
making award decisions, making final decisions on protests, and signing contracts. In larger
entities your involvement may be confined to approving large dollar value awards.
When you think about the basic expectations of good government and its handling of money,
they call for systemic checks and balances in the request -approval -release of payments to
prevent embezzlement. Realize the expectations for procurement decisions also call for
similar types of separation. A public official should maintain an "arm's length" distance from
any elements of the procurement transaction not formally required of the official. Wherever
feasible, consult with or delegate decisions to professionals who know how to navigate the
legal and ethical landscape associated with obligating your agency in contractual
relationships and who can design and implement the methods for achieving best value. For
officials who wish to be as involved as possible, procurement professionals can guide you
about appropriate and problematic actions for each separate procurement.
You are likely to be involved during budget planning and adoption for expenditures that will
be handled as A) public procurements or B) handled through other (non -procurement) types
of public contracts such as grants or intergovernmental agreements. If you are so involved, it
will be valuable for you to use your leadership to make sure all expenditures are subjected to
a good "business case" and a good risk analysis. All executives and your procurement staff
should have a good grasp of the methodology for preparing a business case - a business case
is a structured basis for comparing alternatives and making a wise choice from among them
(see resources for more explanation). And someone needs to be proficient at risk analysis and
risk management, whether they are in your procurement staff, legal staff or are specialized
risk managers. Both business cases and risk analysis can be very simple for simple situations,
and very complex for complex situations - you want people who know how to conduct these
analyses efficiently to match the situation, and you really want everyone to make the wisest
decisions to get the desired results and avoid problems. Your role includes finding experts on
business cases and risk analysis and using them.
2. Ethics
The Highly Abridged Version:
Do nothing to compromise the appearance or reality of fair treatment and opportunity for
all who would do business with your entity.
There are established principles to guide your actions, and those of all employees, but
procurement is complex and the details can be very tricky. Rely on your procurement staff to
be your professional guides.
There are several areas to learn more about: Bribery and Kickbacks; Gifts and special deals;
Conflicts of Interest; Disregarding law or policy; Lobbying; Supplier personal relationships;
Confidential information.
The importance of public trust and the mandate to lead given by the public cannot be
overstated. Leadership credibility is fundamental to the public's willingness to support
government agencies and their leaders. Elected officials and employees involved in the
procurement process know that acting in a manner consistent with the values and principles
of the public procurement profession is essential to preserving the public's trust and mandate
(see the later section on values and principles).
"Public confidence in the integrity of the government is
indispensable to faith in democracy, and when people lose
faith in the system, we lose faith in everything we fight and
spend for."
Adial Stevenson, Governor - Illinois, 1952
Your leadership is shown through your own personal actions, and by how you lead others to act:
■ Act and conduct business with honesty and integrity, avoiding even the appearance of
impropriety. The public expects that public officials will serve only the public interest,
refraining from anything that enhances or appears to enhance self-interest.
■ Maintain consistency in all processes and actions. The public and firms doing business
with your entity need to know they can count on you to be steady and even-handed.
5
■ In all actions, reflect the values of the public procurement profession:
• Accountability
• Ethics
• Impartiality
• Professionalism
• Service
• Transparency
But while these action standards sound simple, the details behind them can be surprisingly
tricky. Procurement has become a very complex function in both the private and public
sectors, and specialized training and expertise are essential to avoid problems. That's why, as
an elected official, it is vital to put the most qualified procurement professionals you can find
in charge of all the procurement processes.
While some entities are large enough to enjoy a dedicated ethics officer and an ombudsman
for the public, all entities can rely on procurement professionals to highlight situations and
behaviors throughout the entity that compromise ethical procurement practice, and to create
work structures, procedures and personal action standards to eliminate such compromises.
But those improvement efforts will work only if they receive organizational support - your
leadership is essential.
A few categories of ethical situations to reflect on include:
Bribery or Kickbacks
Bribes or kickbacks, whether in the form of cash, gifts or other quid pro quo from a
supplier/contractor to explicitly influence a contract award are blatant forms of corruption
The ultimate responsibility for such actions falls on elected and senior officials.
Conflicts of Interest
Though less obvious than bribes and kickbacks, conflicts of interest behaviors are equally
corrupt. Conflicts of interests occur when there is an attempt to influence the awarding of
contracts to individuals or businesses when such an award would result in financial or other
benefits for the public official or family member. You and your employees must avoid activities
that present conflicts of interest, whether perceived or actual, or you will face the political and
practical fallout. That statement is obvious, but because the activities can be subtle, people
can easily get into conflicts without realizing it, or because they think no one will notice. You
need people you can rely on to identify and constructively rectify these situations.
Procurement professionals can give you the details needed to help create a culture of
integrity.
Gifts and special deals
Prospective or current suppliers/contractors may offer gifts or favors or discounts or special
deals to you or to employees of your entity, with the implicit expectation of getting
government business in return. Government ethics laws are likely to address these situations
and you are well-advised to check into the details of those laws; however, from an ethical
standpoint, no elected official or government employee should receive any benefit from a
supplier because of their government position. The undeniable implication is that favoritism is
expected in return. Procurement professionals are almost certain to have substantial training
in this area, and are one of your very best resources to advise how to avoid or resolve
unethical situations.
Failure to comply with Law and Policy
Our human tendency is to work around anything we perceive as cumbersome or unnecessary
(whether the perception is true or false), including procurement regulations and policies, rather
than work hard to make the rules practical and valuable. However, making an "end run" around
procurement laws is not only unethical, but it backfires way more often than it helps. Sometimes
the failure to follow policy and regulations only causes small problems and losses; sometimes
the failure leads to extreme problems. Why would you put up with any problems or losses,
regardless of extent? Your constructive option is to set the expectations that all procurement
policies must be crafted to be streamlined and effective, must be written down and read by all,
and that all employees will follow those measures because it is both smart and ethical to do so.
Lobbying
You already know how much elected and senior officials are lobbied by individuals or firms that
seek to influence budget and procurement decisions, e.g., trying to get you to pursue one
alternative over another, in an attempt to benefit their clients. Lobbying can be a valuable
source of information for the elected official if conducted within a transparent framework. One
problem is getting balanced information from other points of view so that you can make the
best substantive decision. Another potential problem is the perception that your decision
process is unfair or unwise.
When interests come to lobby on procurement matters, is wise practice to either meet with
lobby interests only with your procurement officer present, or refer the lobby interest to the
procurement department to handle. The procurement department will be a neutral resource for
information gathering and analysis from all special interests. This is the best way for your entity
to capitalize on the information while protecting you and your entity from accusations of
conflict of interest.
Supplier relationships
Supplier relationships are important; suppliers may offer suggestions or to assist in achieving
procurement efficiencies, cutting costs, identifying new technologies or solutions, and in producing
more effective solicitations. Just like other lobbying interests, suppliers are motivated to offer these
benefits because they reasonably hope or expect that the relationship will benefit them. And just
as with other lobbying interests, your challenge is to ensure your entity gets balanced information
from other points of view so that you can make the best substantive decision, and also
demonstrate to anyone that your communications and decision processes are fair and wise.
Direct all supplier contact through your procurement professionals - they are trained to treat
suppliers equitably and consistently, and meet the supplier's needs. Procurement offices also
must maximize communication during the process - effective communications with suppliers is
crucial to achieve best value and desired outcomes. It's not okay for a procurement office to be
ignorant of emerging trends or market dynamics because they think they have to keep suppliers
at arm's length. And when you have ongoing supplier relationships that you view as
partnerships, keeping open lines of communication is essential.
Confidentiality
As a public administration official, you may have access to procurement and other nonpublic
information that could affect a contract bid or the award process (e.g., upcoming procurements,
bid prices; evaluations and/or recommendations). You should consult with your procurement
staff before releasing any such information from your office, or you could have your
procurement department handle information releases directly.
One last piece of advice about ethics is to actively create, model, and share the ethical culture
you want for your entity. Train and prepare your employees for the procurement ethics
situations described above. Make your ethics laws and policy known on your website, in your
procurement documents, and through outreach to your suppliers.
3. What is procurement authority and why is this
important for an organization?
The Highly Abridged Version:
Centralizing authority for procurement decisions in a Chief Procurement Officer is an essential
ingredient for coordinating a system of smart procurement decisions.
Power structures are one of the most important factors affecting an organization's operations
- deciding who wields authority to control public procurement is one of the key issues
underlying how well your entity can conduct its procurement activities. If you want your entity
to handle procurement at an adequate level, and especially if you want your entity to improve
its procurement activities beyond adequate, authority to procure must be arranged so that
your entity can become more coordinated, strategic, and professional.
Procurement authority includes the power to control the choice of sourcing methods, the
management of sourcing activities, and the conduct of contract negotiations. It governs who
is responsible for making decisions on suitability and quality issues while developing,
administering and modifying procurement documents and actions. Final contract award and
signature authority can be held by governing bodies or elected officials, or sometimes
delegated to a Chief Procurement Officer.
From the lessons learned in public administration, and what NIGP recommends, is that
procurement authority should be centralized in a Chief Procurement Officer (or multiple
specialized CPOs, such as for Construction, or Information Technology) and her/his
professional staff. Procurement professionals should hold and retain strong primary
responsibility for procurement control/planning/QA/compliance/coordination. At the same
time, a good portion of routine purchasing activity like purchase -card purchases and fill -in -
the -blank contract release orders and catalog orders should be delegated to different
types/levels of staff throughout the entity, along with training and establishment of
streamlined compliance checks.
In government, procurement almost always has to balance multiple goals that are often in
conflict: speed, low price, quality outcomes, level playing field, social and environmental goals,
public transparency and accountability, risk management, and effective contract management
to achieve the needed results on time and budget. The adept synthesis and balancing of
entity business needs with market conditions, available solutions, legal requirements and
other procurement interests demands a higher level of cross -functional awareness and
practice than is generally found in an organization's operational departments - they have a
different immediate focus and generally are not in a position to make the completely informed
decisions necessary for strategic procurement value without coordination by people who
possess specialized procurement expertise. Procurement professionals are trained to see and
deal with these cross -functional connections and implications, but must possess central
procurement authority for the entity to achieve procurement coordination. Similar to other
specialized business support functions, a mature organization will want a professional
procurement department that has specialized knowledge of public procurement principles
and can lead the organization to implement effective processes and best practices.
4. The strategic value of procurement
The Highly Abridged Version:
Why is this subject important? In most government entities, procurement expenditures are
second only to salaries and benefits, so effectiveness and savings through good procurement
can be critical to the success of your mission.
How can your entity become more strategic? Make sure that all your activities clearly lead to
mission -aligned outcomes - many decision processes contain steps that are unnecessary or
interfere with effectiveness. Also, fully informed procurement decisions rely on a large array of
information - get the right people to share the right information at a time when it can make a
positive difference.
Who will be involved? Everybody who affects procurement or is affected by it. Find people
who can design and implement change and give them the support they need.
What are the improvement areas? Two main improvement goals: make each individual
procurement more successful and coordinate across all procurements. Focus on:
• More effective use of technology
• Entity needs analysis, focusing on procuring the most mission -critical things
• Improved "market research"
• Better "business cases" and cost -benefit analyses of alternatives
• Implement more sophisticated contractor selection methods
• Negotiating - getting better at when and how to do it
• Contract writing tailored to the situation
• Improved risk management and contract administration.
WHY is this subject important? Procurement today happens in a world that is getting more
complex and sophisticated, and everything around government expenditures needs to keep
up. The challenge of complexity is compounded when government revenues and resources
are always less than what your mission demands. The result is that most government entities
need to do a better job with the effort and money they spend on procurement and
outsourced program delivery. Strategic procurement is an integrated campaign over time
involving the whole organization - it is the opposite of a series of disjointed individual
purchases. Strategic value begins to grow when an entity shifts its focus from reactive,
transactional, lowest -price purchases to proactive, best value procurement actions. The main
improvement goals are to make each individual procurement more successful and to achieve
the benefits of coordinating as much as possible across all the procurements.
A. Individual procurements fail usually because of poor planning decisions, or in poor
performance by the contractor/supplier and poor contract administration by entity
staff failing to catch (and sometimes contributing to) performance problems. It is
relatively rare for "front page" problems to arise from the selection and
purchasing/contracting steps.
B. The collective procurement activity of your entity can be uncoordinated, and therefore
more wasteful and problem -ridden than it should be. Human nature being what it is,
people in the entity can be shortsighted and not want to invest effort in getting
coordinated, and may even cover up problems, or fail to recognize them.
Your leadership opportunity is to work with your procurement professionals to assess where
your entity falls on the spectrum of "procurement maturity," and to devise actions to move
your entity towards more professionalism (and therefore benefit). The private sector, in
general, recognized the contribution to the success of the entity that good procurement
produces, sooner than the government sector, and has devoted more resources than
government to improving procurement because it is such a ripe area for achieving benefits -
but government needs those benefits just as much.
HOW can your entity become more strategic around procurement? First, work on making
sure that all your activities are clearly tied to the outcomes you want from procurement. The
processes and actions people create for making and implementing procurement decisions
should lead to the desired outcomes, and if your entity is falling short of its desired outcomes,
the design of the processes and actions need to change. It's primarily the processes (not
people's individual performance) that drives the outcomes.
The processes we are talking about are those that lead to fully informed decisions about
choices and actions that will lead to the desired outcomes. Procurement decisions rely on a
large array of information, some of which comes from program managers and program staff
(including information from outside stakeholders), some from procurement staff, some from
finance, legal and fiscal staff, and some from potential contractors/suppliers. Effective
decisions can only be made after getting all these people to share the right information so it
can be considered before the main decisions have been made. Success comes from figuring
things out before making a decision, not making a decision and then hoping others will figure
out how to make it work.
Second, in addition to making sure the processes achieve the outcomes, processes generally
also could use a good trimming, as they tend to grow and become convoluted over time. Ask
your staff to map out the steps and functions they follow, looking to eliminate or transform
every step that does not add solid value.
WHO will be involved in a shift towards more strategic procurement? First, public entities
need procurement people with critical thinking skills and expertise to design the
organizational changes and improved strategies needed to keep up with today's procurement
environment. Expect your procurement professionals to possess the knowledge and skills
necessary to identify the important goals, turn them into actionable objectives, and effectively
communicate them to everyone affected.
Second, acknowledge that everyone connected to procurement must participate in changes
and making the changes part of the standard operating culture. That means people in most
areas of your entity. The move toward strategic procurement involves partnerships that likely
will include legal, financial, IT, HR and program staff. One of your challenges is to provide the
authority and support they need so the entity can make and sustain the desired changes.
While talking about the people who need to work together and get things done in your entity,
this is a good place to mention that changing demographics are showing that newer
employees may be less likely to stay in one job or organization for a long time, compared to
earlier times. That means that entities should devote more effort to creating institutional
knowledge - structures or practices to transfer procurement knowledge that formerly were
attained only through long experience.
10
WHAT improvement areas can the entity work on? Obviously, procurement strategies must
align with the vision, mission, values and goals of the organization and also meet the needs of
the community and key stakeholders, but if they are not currently aligned, it will take some
initial hard work to get them in alignment. Improved procurement strategies must be
designed proactively with the involvement of all levels and units of the public entity. A few
aspects where empowered procurement professionals can work with others to help their
entity make better decisions and get more value from their own procurements and contracts
are through conducting:
■ More sophisticated entity needs analysis and planning, which focuses effort on the
procured goods and services that are mission critical to the entity. Data management
and spend analysis techniques can help avoid duplication, rogue spending and
maximize volume discounts.
■ Improved "market research" to identify a complete range of delivery alternatives and
their basic feasibility, which avoids narrow minded or short-sighted decisions.
Procurement staff must work hard to stay current on marketplace conditions and all
staff must not miss innovative solutions appearing in the marketplace.
■ Better cost -benefit analyses of those alternatives, to make the highest value choice
that aligns with the entity's goals.
■ Better documentation of the business case for top alternatives, to fulfill the need for
transparency and accountability, and also help others learn how to make solid
decisions.
■ More sophisticated contractor selection methods aimed at achieving:
• a match to market conditions specific to the purchased service or product,
• greater competition/better prices or value,
• continuity of supply and easier administration,
• best fit, better service and outcomes, and fewer problems.
■ Negotiating - getting better at when and how to do it.
■ More sophisticated contract drafting; a good contract helps keeps things on track and
provides answers if problems arise.
■ Making sure staff have both the time and expertise necessary for risk management and
contract administration, which, along with selection of the best supplier/contractor, are
the strongest factors for keepings things on track and getting good results.
■ More effective use of technology. Electronic processing can reduce the wait time to
purchase goods and services, and reduce overhead costs of those transactions.
Integrated systems can track spend data, affording wider and more immediate data
reporting capability than manual or siloed systems. Data that is easily accessed and
understood is essential for understanding and managing the entity's expenditures, and
supports transparency and accountability.
5. Important Procurement Values and Principles
The Highly Abridged Version;
Bedrock values and principles to guide public procurement have been established by NIGP,
but their usefulness comes only through detailed understanding and an organization -wide
commitment to working in partnership with each other.
To achieve an ethical procurement culture and realize the strategic value of procurement, an
entity will be guided by discrete values and principles. NIGP: The Institute for Public
Procurement adopted the "Values and Guiding Principles of Public Procurement" in
2010. They are: Accountability; Ethics; Impartiality; Professionalism; Service; Transparency.
What do terms like these mean in public procurement and what importance are they to you as
an elected or senior official?
Transparency and Accountability
NIGP's value on "Transparency" states that transparency means "Easily accessible and
understandable policies and processes... essential to demonstrate responsible use of public
funds:'
"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure
when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from
them."
Patrick Henry
The principle of transparency in public procurement is based on the premise that, without
transparency, there cannot be a corruption -free procurement system. Procurements in the
public sector are reported publicly and can be scrutinized by the public, while private sector
procurement information is generally closely held to maintain a competitive advantage. Not
recognizing this fundamental difference may help explain why some public officials fall into
ethics violations or other problems.
Another aspect of transparency is ensuring that any potential supplier can easily find out how
to seek business with your entity, and have the same access to information that all others have.
12
One of the chief virtues of a democracy.. Is that its defects
are always visible and under democratic processes
can be pointed out and corrected"
Harry S. Truman
In addition to those purposes, transparency is also linked to the value and principle of
Accountability. Transparency in procurement means easy access to understandable
documentation of our procurement actions, so that everyone can hold the entity accountable
for making good program decisions about alternatives for achieving outcomes, and about the
effectiveness of specific purchasing decisions. Accountability for procurement decisions
primarily revolves around sound business judgments, smart assessment of market conditions,
arranging for good competition and making the best selections, and compliance with laws
and regulations; which all lead to the desired outcomes. Recognize that effective
management philosophy is focused on whether the entity is making good decisions about
those things; it is not a "gotcha" focus on individuals, since most decisions are a result of
either effective or ineffective processes for collecting information and comparing
perspectives. Organizational learning and progress depend upon having helpful procurement
documentation that is easily accessible and examined often. In other words, that sentence
means you can't get better if you have no awareness about what is going well or poorly.
Some best practices related to Transparency:
■ Create and maintain complete and modern policies, procedures, and records.
■ Provide easy access to those policies and records.
■ Constantly improve easier and wider access to government contracting opportunities.
Ethics and Impartiality
Because of its importance and complexity, Ethics is introduced in its own section above.
Impartiality is closely related, and defined as "unbiased decision -making and action... essential
to ensure fairness for the public good:' While this involves eliminating conflicts of interest for
you and your employees, impartiality is primarily exhibited by the way your entity treats
prospective and existing suppliers/contractors. For instance, during each procurement, the
entity must take action to create a level playing field:
■ Advertise widely rather than targeting to exclude undesired competition.
■ Describe your entity's needs and requirements in terms of outcomes, and not focus on
prescriptive specifications that reduce competition and innovation.
■ Eliminate personal and institutional bias from all decisions.
■ Balance competing interests among stakeholders and document the chosen rationale.
Professionalism and Service
Professionalism is linked to the previous sections on Strategic Value and the arrangement of
Procurement Authority. You should ask your procurement professionals exactly how they
implement the principles of professionalism that they are expected to pursue in your entity.
13
Those principles are:
■ Be led by those with education, experience, and professional certification in public
procurement.
■ Continually contribute value to the organization.
■ Continually develop as a profession through education, mentorship, innovation, and
partnerships.
■ Develop, support, and promote the highest professional standards in order to serve the
public good.
■ Seek continuous improvement through ongoing training, education, and skill
enhancement.
Service includes the following principles:
■ Be a crucial resource and strategic partner within the organization and community.
■ Develop and maintain relationships with stakeholders.
■ Develop collaborative partnerships to meet public needs.
■ Maintain a customer -service focus while meeting the needs, and protecting the
interests, of the organization and the public.
There are two aspects, or levels, to all the principles bulleted above. On one level, those
principles are the responsibility of your procurement professionals and apply to their
activities. At the same time, it's not just up to them - the entire entity is responsible to
implement those principles to their procurement related activities. Procurement professionals
can come up with plans for achieving them, but implementation is a partnership with all units
within the entity.
6. Private v. Public Procurement: Differences and Similarities
The Highly Abridged Version:
Many aspects of public procurement are controlled by legislative statutes: private sector
entities are free to follow their own policies and methods.
Where choice is allowed, public procurement exists in an environment of multiple competing
goals - goals for the entity and goals for the public - which can be a difficult balancing act.
Significant differences exist for procurement in the public sector as compared to the private
sector If you are not familiar with procurement, and especially if you are new to the public
sector, it is important to become aware of these differences as a basic part of government
operations.
14
What is the big deal about Competitlo? Public procurement is founded on the near
universal statutory requirement for fully advertised, open and fair competition, with only
limited exceptions. The private sector is free to follow whatever methods it chooses;
competitive or not, transparent or not.
Why is open competition one of the key principles for government procurement? Historically,
when government and private purchasers were allowed to select suppliers of good and
services based on subjective discretion, that led to bribes and other corruption. Even when
corruption was not a factor, there are many stories about picking goods or services that were
either a bad price or turned out to be spectacular quality failures. Fair and open competition
came to be seen as a good way to combat corruption and also get good prices, and the
concept of including specifications for quality was added to make sure the desired quality
outcomes were achieved. These principles were so successful that they became widespread
law throughout the public sector.
Selection based strictly on the lowest bid has its own set of limitations and drawbacks, and in
modern times, procurement methods have evolved to look at all the factors (beyond just
price) that add up to good value, but they are still based on the same principle of using
market competition to illuminate the best choices.
The beauty of relying on competition for government business is twofold: it provides the
incentive for bidders to propose the greatest possible value they can deliver, and it provides
objective, comparative market information that helps the government entity determine
whether it is getting the most value possible. That is, the best alternative will appear through
competition; or another way of looking at it is that competition is a good way of testing
whether an alternative is really the best or not. Because of that, whenever someone says "oh,
competition isn't necessary; I assure you this solution is the best available;' the best response
is that if that solution really is the best, competition will prove it. For this reason,
recommended practice is to go beyond the minimum requirements for public competition and
make it a policy to conduct procurements through competition whenever practicable.
At the same time, it is true that there are some common sense exceptions to conducting
competition, explained in the later section on procurement methods. It is also worth
remembering that when it comes to public sector procurement methods, they are prescribed
by legislative bodies, not procurement managers. As a result, allowable methods tend to be
standardized, constrained and rather slow to react to changing conditions in the world.
Private sector procurement methods are decided by each company or delegated manager,
can vary widely, and can adapt to changing conditions quickly.
Multiple goals. The second most apparent difference between public and private sector
procurement is that private purchasing is simple in the sense that it all eventually boils down
to contributions to that entity's profit. In contrast, public procurement almost always has to
balance multiple goals that cannot be tied to a single measure like profit, and are often in
conflict: speed, low price, quality outcomes, level playing field, social and environmental goals,
public transparency and accountability, and being averse to risk. This is a much more complex
work environment, involving more difficult and subjective analyses of what is important, more
negotiation and communication effort to balance tradeoffs, more complicated solicitation and
selection methods to meet multiple goals, and more complicated contracts. Expectations and
regulations around ethics, fairness and transparency are generally much greater. Procurement
cycles are longer. There are many more stakeholders.
In addition to the differences between the public and private sectors, there are some
similarities worth recognizing:
is
Sustainability - the triple bottom line orientation. Increased integration of sustainability
values and goals into strategic plans has expanded the traditional definition of "bottom line"
from a singular focus on profit and loss to embrace social, economic and environmental costs.
This is an area where government has led in the establishment of the desired values, but as
social and environmental issues have become part of good business for everyone, the private
sector has in many cases gone beyond the government in developing the most effective
means for implementing those values. Both sectors are expected to do more, and to
cooperate more.
Growing sophistication. As mentioned in the section on the strategic value of procurement,
both the general marketplace and the practices of procurement are changing at faster rates
and becoming even more complex. Sourcing strategies rapidly evolve, and must be tailored
for specific products or services and their marketplace. Planning decisions are being guided
by strategic sourcing models, and total cost of ownership and cost -benefit analyses. There is a
greater focus on balancing many factors to achieve "best value" and more emphasis on
negotiations and longer -term "partnerships".
7. Typical Procurement Methods and Key Exceptions
to Competition
The Highly Abridged Version:
What are the three common levels of public competition? Below a certain dollar threshold,
you can select a provider without needing to conduct any competition. In a middle range,
typically you have to seek at least 3 quotes. At a higher dollar level, advertised and fully open,
formal competition is required.
What are suppliers competing over? The two main types are price and qualifications to perform
Other values can also be included. "Best Value" methods include all your important values.
Are there exceptions to competition? Two customary exceptions included in most
procurement laws are Sole -Source and Emergencies.
Does "cooperative purchasing" make sense for us? Being able to utilize a contract already
established by another public entity (aka "piggy -back"), or to subscribe to a joint cooperative
procurement established for multiple entities, may save administrative time and leverage the
greater purchasing power of a "cooperative contract" to achieve lower prices.
Typical Procurement methods, and the need for c:_ sn.
The basic types of procurement methods are fairly similar across our country, particularly
around the need for full and open competition. While they are the same in substantive
characteristics, the labels or names for these methods can vary a lot.
s
■ Small direct purchases/no competition: Most government entities adopt a low dollar
threshold that allows for direct purchases without a required effort to conduct any
competition (competition is encouraged but optional). Dollar levels for that threshold
vary considerably, and usually are a balance between efficiency and the public's
expectations around opportunities to bid and getting low prices through competition.
The upper dollar thresholds for this "small purchase" method typically fall within a
range from $2,500 to $25,000.
■ Informal, or 113-quotes" competition: There is often a middle ground where
competition is required, but follows relatively streamlined and informal procedures
around how many potential providers are contacted (typically 3 quotes minimum),
how long to advertise/allow for bids or proposals, and whether to use other
administrative procedures like providing a right for a potential provider to protest the
government entity decisions. Upper dollar thresholds for this intermediate or informal
range typically vary from $75,000 to $250,000.
■ Full formal competition: At some established higher dollar level, the full, formal
competition method gives full published notice to the public about a contracting
opportunity, gives adequate time to prepare bids or proposals (typically 14 - 30 days
minimum), may give potential suppliers a chance to challenge the relevance and
fairness of the advertised requirements, and always gives them a chance to protest the
government's selection of provider if something is improper.
Since more care should be taken when there is more money or complexity at stake, often
these dollar thresholds are tied to requirements for involvement or review by people in risk
management, finance, information technology, or legal.
Governing bodies are trending toward raising dollar thresholds regarding the need for
competition because of the benefits from streamlining, and perhaps because of trust in their
procurement professionals. Procurement officials ensure contracts are distributed and
awarded fairly over within the expanded small and informal ranges.
What is Competition based ce and Qualifications.
There is another basic aspect to procurement methods besides the level of competition tied
to dollar thresholds, and that is the rationale for selecting a potential supplier. The two most
simple categories for deciding who gets a contract are A) the lowest -priced supplier gets it,
or B) the most suitably qualified supplier gets it.
For much of U.S. history, government relied heavily on the simple low -bid selection method
(Invitation to Bid or ITB). That method can result in mild to severe drawbacks when quality,
timeliness, continuity of supply, environmental impact, and a host of other important goals get
excluded from the selection decision.
Officials experiencing these drawbacks developed methods like the Request for Proposals
(RFP) that consider performance qualifications of the potential supplier and their proposed
approach for meeting the government need. Price may be a small or large part of the
selection considerations. There is another method for architects and engineers that restricts
the government to only considering qualifications and project approach, and price doesn't get
discussed until negotiations with the selected supplier. Other methods have developed in the
construction industry, such as Design -Build, Construction Manager/General Contractor, and
others, and are gaining in use. Many of these require specialized expertise on the part of your
procurement officials.
17
A more current trend in procurement laws and methods is to seek Best Value, by allowing the
public entity to include all the factors that it finds to be relevant and important to achieving
"value" in its broad meaning. Governing bodies authorize procurement officials to determine
the most suitable method to achieve the entity's values and goals. This is the approach
supported by NIGP and recommended by the American Bar Association Model Procurement
Code, now adopted in whole or in part in most states and thousands of local governments.
Exceptions from competition.
Since public procurement competitions require time and effort, officials are often interested in
the few exceptions to competition. In addition to the small procurement or direct contracting
method, there are two other customary exceptions included in most procurement laws: Sole -
Source and Emergencies. Emergencies, with their need to respond more quickly than
competition allows, are intuitively easy to understand. Sole -source means that competition
would be fruitless when the need can only be met by one provider. The concept itself is
intuitive, but its application can be controversial because it may rely on competing subjective
interpretations about whether there truly is only one provider. Procurement officials are the
best trained people to determine whether there is only one or more than one provider, and
within an entity they should be the one authorized to make this judgment call. It is a common
temptation for people to abuse this method to simply get what they have assumed is the best
product or service, but that runs directly counter to the principle of relying on competition for
proof instead of making personal judgment calls.
There is another area of procurement that is an exception to competition - jurisdictions may
adopt social policies that set up direct contracts to certain nonprofit corporations that
typically assist those with a disability, the blind, etc. Others have social policies regarding the
mandatory use of inmate labor for certain contracts. Some jurisdictions may adopt policies
that prescribe limited competition; these are usually described as "set -aside" programs where
only a certain class of bidder/proposer is allowed to compete for a certain class of contracts.
Each of these policy options has effects on the competitive market for government business;
for instance, opponents to such policies may frame them as hurting "regular" business.
Potential effects should be explicitly considered during the policy process, and procurement
professionals can help analyze the impacts - also see the later section on "The Issue of Social
Policy and Contracting Preferences."
A brief mention of cooperative purchasing.
Cooperative Purchasing in general refers to the practice and ability for one government entity
to "tap into" a competitively solicited contract established by another entity, or joint
cooperative procurements established on behalf of multiple entities, and directly purchase
from one of those contracts without having to start from scratch by conducting their own
separate competition, selecting a provider, and creating their own contract. This saves
administrative time and money, and cooperative contracts often can leverage collective
purchasing power into lower prices. They are usually viewed as options or alternatives to
conducting one's own procurement. Many, but not all procurement laws allow this practice.
Some laws count the other entity's competition as sufficient, some only allow this if your own
entity was a co-partner in the original competition, and others do not allow this at all. These
policy choices about the required participation in competition are legislative judgments and
there is no definitive best policy practice on this detailed issue. More generally, procurement
professionals should have the knowledge and skills to assess the benefits, as well as the costs
and limitations, of using any given cooperative contract.
is
8. Emergency Management and Continuity of Operations
The Highly Abridged Version:
A basic responsibility for elected officials is emergency preparation and response.
Procurement is a key component of both phases.
An important best practice for public entities is to include the procurement department on
the continuity of operations and emergency and disaster management teams. Procurement
offices have an important role in preparing for and supporting the logistics of disaster
recovery efforts for emergency -related events such as severe storms,
floods/fires/earthquakes, epidemics, and crime events. Emergency purchases may be needed
due to an unexpected and urgent request where health and safety or the conservation of
public resources is at risk. Usually formal competitive bidding procedures can be waived. Your
procurement department will likely know of federal emergency funding parameters,
compliance issues, and contract options that can be employed during response and recovery
periods. Procurement staff have access to resources to describe their role in emergency
operations centers, to set up "pre -positioned" contracts, and how to utilize and support local
vendor relationships.
9. The Political Policy Issue of Privatization
The Highly Abridged Version:
Outsourcing, privatization, and use of public -private partnerships are always complicated and
can be contentious. Procurement professionals are essential consultants on these issues.
Outsourcing (turning to the private sector to provide things previously provided directly by
the government), and Privatization (divesting a government function nearly completely or
completely) are attention -getting policy choices that typically are driven by political
considerations.
Public -Private Partnerships (which fall along a spectrum where the partners allocate their
obligations, resources, and risks/rewards in order to help the public entity achieve things it
cannot on its own), are ostensibly less about politics and more about innovative selection and
contracting methods, but they also can have political aspects, especially when private money
is borrowed to finance public assets, or when they are misused to sidestep competition and
transparency.
Are any of these policy choices a good idea from a financial stewardship perspective? They
should be selected only after assessing all relevant trade-offs, and any of these choices must
19
demonstrate net value to the public. Procurement officials' training includes knowledge and
skills for analyzing these types of issues, and you should include them when considering any
of these choices.
Procurement officials are also usually charged with implementing these choices effectively,
and if they do not possess the appropriate expertise in-house, will be able to find the outside
resources necessary for the public entity to handle the often -complex business, legal and
contractual aspects.
10. Social Policy and Contracting Preferences
The Highly Abridged Version:
Procurement policies are a possible tool for affecting social policy - sometimes effective, but
too often misapplied.
Elected officials often are concerned with issues having social, economic, and environmental
fairness and sustainability implications. Some seek to use the power of public procurement as
a means to advance social policy. Even within procurement there can be several potential
approaches to advance a given social policy. Whether the approach provides direct or
indirect support, some are more effective and some are more problematic - all can be
controversial.
Public procurement can be an effective catalyst to spur specific economic development,
promote the availability and use of environmentally preferable products and services and
advance other sustainability-related goals (such as elimination of human trafficking and
slavery from supply chains, for example). Further, some entities have implemented
procurement policies to correct structural imbalances affecting minority-, woman- or veteran -
owned businesses, qualified rehabilitation services for disabled/challenged persons, or to
stimulate the local economy through a "buy local" initiative.
For many entities the results of these policies have established a new status quo for their
jurisdictions and would likely be considered appropriate and, for the most part, successful
applications of procurement policy to positively affect social change. Too often, though,
manipulating procurement practice to address a social issue negatively impacts competition
or inadvertently creates new system imbalances that prompt claims of "preferential
treatment" or favoritism. This creates a contracting environment at greater risk for supplier
protest or legal challenges that impede agency efficiency and effectiveness. As mentioned in
section seven on procurement methods, some jurisdictions adopt exceptions to competition
by directing contracts to targeted, favored types of businesses; or they adopt a partial
exception to competition by designating certain types of contracts or certain sets of money
that are "set aside," and only the favored class of businesses are allowed to compete for that
business. These approaches can be characterized as direct support.
20
In contrast to direct support through mandated exceptions or set -asides, indirect support
seeks social goal achievement through means more subtle than mandates. They can be
perceived as a less honest approach, one that has "rigged the game." An example of this is a
scoring preference for a favored class of business that gets mechanically applied during the
competitive process - typically for all bids and proposals issued by the entity. This gets
applied as an "extra points" advantage toward selection.
Mechanistic preferences tilt the playing field, which some people object to as a matter of
principle, claiming that contract selections should be based solely on "merit" (price and
qualifications).
To the extent that there has been research conducted into the efficacy of indirect support
methods, the results have not provided a clear indication that they really help the favored
businesses or ultimately derive positive benefit to the agency.
Looking at the implications of employing a 'local preference' as an example, scoring
preferences encounter certain issues:
1. It can be difficult to define the favored class of business, in this case a local
business. Should a local business be defined as one that is owned by a local person; or
one that uses local workers; or one that pays more than X amount of local taxes; or has
a location within jurisdiction limits, or within a certain distance radius; or must have its
headquarters there and not just a local office; etc.?
2. "Buy local" preference laws may be successfully challenged. In a few court cases they
have been ruled unconstitutional.
3. Many jurisdictions have enacted retaliatory preferences to counteract neighboring
jurisdictions' preference laws. If you adopt a preference policy for your "local"
businesses, the retaliatory policies will penalize them when they seek work in that
other jurisdiction. Depending on where they do most of their business, this can result
in your local businesses losing more than they gain from your preference.
We can see just from the one example above that achieving social goals through procurement
policy can prove challenging and have unintended consequences. As with so many issues
that government leaders wrestle, social goals require clear problem definition and due
diligence when considering potential solution approaches. Keep in mind that how your
agency conducts its (procurement) business will directly influence how the business
community and the public -at -large perceives the integrity, professionalism and
trustworthiness of its leaders.
21
NIGP.• The
Public Procurement l nigp,org
Institute for
L'I
Resources
1. NIGP Values and Guiding Principles of Public Procurement. Procurement Resources
page at www.nigp.org. (http://www.nigp.org/home/find-procurement-
resources/guidance/values-and-guiding-principles)
2. NIGP Position Papers. Procurement Resources page at www.nigp.org.
(http://www.nigp.org/home/find-procurement-resources/guidance/position-papers)
3. NIGP-CIPS Global Best Practices. Procurement Resources page at www.nigp.org.
(http://www, nig p.org/ho me/find-procurement-resources/guidance/global-best-practices)
4. The National Association of State Procurement Officials. NASPO Publications page at
www.naspo.org; particularly, State & Local Government Procurement - A Practical
Guide (2nd Edition 2015), ISBN-13: 978-1-60427-107-2
5. Schmidt, Marty J. (2015). The business case guide (31d Edition 2015).
ISBN 978-1-929500-14-7.
Acknowledgements
This guide was written in 2016 and primarily authored by Jon Walton, JD, CPPO, CPPB, chair
of the NIGP Legislative & Position Committee. Key contributions were from, and appreciation
is due to Steve Demel, CPPO; Ted Lucas, CPPO, J.D., FCPM; Bill Lindsey, CPPO, C.P.M.; Brent
Maas at NIGP; Mark Turcotte, Norma Sutton, CPPO, CIPP; Keith Ashby, CPPO, for the initial
inspiration, and Legislative & Position Committee members for review and support.
Feedback or Comments
If you'd like to provide NIGP feedback about this guide, recommend revisions or have questions
about the principles and practices discussed herein, contact us at NIGPGuide@nigp.org.
(11YO
SET
HOME OF PELICAN ISLAND
PROCUREMENT THRESHOLDS REQUIREMENTS & ACTIONS
Those who procure on behalf of the City of Sebastian are charged with acquiring the best quality supplies, equipment and services at the lowest
cost. The following matrix lists threshold values for purchases and the actions required based on the requisition value. It is important to adhere to
these threshold requirements and refrain from submitting invoices for purchases not following these requirements (i.e. "after -the -fact" purchases).
If "piggybacking" from another public entity, claiming Sole Source or seeking an exception to the listed threshold requirements, immediately notify
the Procurement/Contracts Manager of such intent to ensure proper documentation is obtained to satisfy the Procurement Ordinance 0-06-01.
An emergency purchase is defined as an unexpected turn of events that causes immediate danger to public health, safety and public property; or
an interruption of essential governmental services or City operations.
THRESHOLD
REQUIREMENT
DEPARTMENT
PROCUREMENT
ACTION
ACTION
REQUISITION VALUE:
< $2,500.00
.��qa
�*,..��.,
"" ;>
Single Quote - competition
encouraged but
not required
REQUISITION VALUE:
$2,600.01 - $5,000.00
Two or more
verbal quotes required
r.-�-�
""""'°
Create Purchase
Requisition
Review for Compliance;
L. -
- process Purchase Order
REQUISITION VALUE:
$5,000.01 - $15,000.00
Three or more
written quotes required
(1) Receive Compliance
Approval from
REQUISITION VALUE:
$15,000.01 - $25,000.00
t�
Three or more
written quotes required;
Requires City Council
Procurement; (2) Prepare
Agenda Transmittal to
Process Purchase Order
obtain authorization from
authorization
City Council for Purchase;
�\
(3) If approved, Create
Purchase Requisition
j
Formal Solicitation Process
Request Solicitation
(1) Prepare & Release
REQUISITION VALUE:
required; requires City
Preparation from
Solicitation; (2) Open &
> $25,000.00
.,�..:yb
Council authorization to
.ar
Procurement(Contracts
CEO* Review, (3) Recommend
award
Manager
Award to City Council; (4) If
awarded, provide NTP
M0_1
SETL'\N
HOME OF PELICAN ISLAND
SOLICITATION (ITE3 / RFP / RF01 PROCESS
Department Head Notifies
ProcurementlContracts Manager of the
Need for a Solicitation
i
ProcurementlContracts Manager prepares
Solicitation Documents
I
Department Head Reviews and
City Manager and
Provides Feedback I
Attorney Reviews and
I
Provides Feedback
Advertise
Procurement/Contracts Manager I t Paper
finalizes Publication Documents 2. Star
I
City We
3. CCity bsite
Pre -Bid Conference
(Mandatory or Non -Mandatory),
ecorrlmend�tro of Award
If applicable
epartment Head�repares
Agenda Transmittal for
City Council Award
Q & A Deadline
Coordinate w/ Department to
It
Publish Addendum answering
questions
Contract Si
'
Contract to be Signed by City and
by
I
Contractors)
j
/.
Bid Ooenina
! Publicly Announce
City Clerk to File and
Ja
Bids/Proposals Received
Retain
Notice to Proceed
i r
Publish Notice to Proceed
! Resoonsiveness Review
Procurement/Contracts Manager
Reviews Submissions for
f:>
Responsiveness
Purchase Order
Issue PO
Bid/Proposal Review
�— City Manager, Department Head, City
Council and/or City Representatives
Reviews Submission for
Recommendation of Award
it N
5E tUM
_� 05
HOME OF PELICAN ISLAND
Administrative Services Department — Procurement Division
"PIGGYBACK" CHECKLIST
"Piggybacking" is used to obtain the benefits of volume purchases and reduces administrative expenses/time when
procuring similar goods or services to other governmental entities.
Definition: Piggyback Contracting is "a form of intergovernmental cooperative purchasing in which an entity will extend
the pricing and terms of a contract entered into by a larger entity. Generally, a larger entity will competitively award a
contract that will include language allowing for other entities to utilize the contract which may be to their advantage in
terms of pricing, thereby gaining economies of scale that they normally would not receive if they competed on their
own." - National Institute of Governmental Purchasing (NIGP).
Citv's Ordinance Sec. 2-10(c)(2): The purchasing officer shall have the authority to utilize contracts or master
agreements of state, federal or other local governments or other public entities to procure goods and services, if the
contract or agreement has been awarded through procedures substantially equivalent to the requirements of this
section. The purchasing officer shall have the authority to procure goods and services if the purchase is with a person,
firm, organization, or corporation whose offer to sell to the city is at sale price for that commodity equal to or lower than
the existing piggyback price for the same or equal commodity being sought. All such purchases over $15,000.00 shall
continue to require council approval. (Flodda Statutes 5 189.4221)
"Piggybacking" is not authorized for the procurement of professional services that are subject to the
requirements of the Consultants' Competitive Negotiation Act, Section 287.055 F.S.; i.e. those services within
the scope of the practice of architecture, professional engineering, landscape architecture, or registered land
surveying and mapping.
In order to utilize a bid/contract as noted above, the following documents must be received by the Procurement Division:
Original solicitation document that was issued by the agency
Proof of agency's legal advertisement (i.e. newspaper, website posting or third party provider posting)
Copy of awarded firm's bid submittal/proposal
Bid tabulation sheet or list of proposals received
Agency's award document (i.e. Agenda Item, Award Letter, etc.)
Copy of the fully executed (signed) contract/agreement (if applicable).
Executed Notice of Intent to Piggyback
The requesting department in conjunction with the Procurement Division must first verify the proposed agencys
solicitation specifications and award information to ensure that they meet the requirements of the requesting
department and the City. The contract must be active and not expired, or, if the initial term has passed, the contract
has been extended or renewed.
2. The Procurement Division must verify that the proposed "piggyback" is competitive by comparing pricing to other
agencies of like size or greater. If there is reason as to why comparison outside of the "piggyback" cannot be done,
details shall be documented.
3. The Procurement Division will prepare a Notice of Intent to Piggyback for the awarded vendor to sign. This letter
verifies that the same pricing and contract terms will be honored for the purchase of goods/services made while the
contract is active; this includes any contract extensions or renewals.
Note: "Piggyback" only applies when the item(s) or service(s) to be purchased and the award tern are exactly the
same as the original award. "Piggybacking" is not permissible when the action would call for a substitution of
goods or services and/or an increase in quantifies that were not originally bid on and not originally evaluated as
part of the contract award. Such an order for substitutions or additional quantities would constitute a non-
competitive procurement sometimes referred to as a "tag -on."
Revised 11-19-19
Ann -Marie Fraser
Subject: CONE OF SILENCE - AS OF <DATE>
The Cone of Silence is in full effect until an award is made by the City Council. Contact by a Bidder/Proposer (or anyone
representing them) regarding any of the following Solicitations with the City Council or a City employee/representative
other than the point of contact listed, is grounds for disqualification.
This Solicitation and associating documents can be found on the websites below.
PLEASE DO NOT COMMUNICATE WITH INTERESTED VENDORS. PLEASE REFER ALL VENDORS OR QUESTIONS RECEIVED
TO AFRASER@CITYOFSEBASTIAN.ORG.
The following solicitations are under the Cone of Silence as of <DATE>:
BID NO. I BID TITLE
Thank you.
Ann -Marla Fraser, CPP$, MBA s Procurement/Contracts Manager
City of Sebastian 1 1225 Main Street, Sebastian, FL 32958
(772) 388-8231 1 afraser@cityofsebastian.org
www.citvofsebastian.org
Solicitation Documents are available for download at:
City's Website https://www.cityofsebastian.orq/current-bids
DemandStar I https://www.demandstar.Gom/supplier/bids/agency inc/bid list.asp?f=search&mi=10140
Vendor Registry I https://vrapp.vendorregistry.com/BidsN!ew/BidsList?Buyerld=clb9cccB-8e82-49fe-8e47-Oe2d4a5cb5bc
Olvllf
$y' V
H0�11E OF PELICAN ISLAND
1
�mlz
SE13ASTIAN
HOME OF PELICAN ISLAND
EXTRAORDINARY PROCUREMENT CERTIFICATE,
An Extraordinary Procurement Certificate is required whenever there is intent to have an exception made for an Emergency, Single Source
or Sole Source purchase, below $15.000. Should the intended purchase not conform to at least one of the definitions below, refer to
Threshold Requirements to determine the process for the purchase.
An Emergency purchase is defined as an unexpected turn of events that causes immediate danger to public health, safety and public
property; or an interruption of essential governmental services or City operations.
A Single Source purchase is defined as the purchase of required good/service from one source because of City standardization, warranty
or other distinctive factors (provide details).
A Sole Source purchase is defined as having only one practical source for the purchase of the required good/service (attach Sole Source
Letter from vendor or manufacturer).
Fully completed Certificates are subject to review and approval by the Procurement/Contracts Manager and City Manager
DATE:
TO:
DEPARTMENT HEAD:
DEPARTMENT:
TYPE OF PURCHASE:
PROPOSED VENDOR:
ITEMS OR SERVICES
REQUIRED:
Ann -Marie Fraser, CPPB, MBA
Emergency ❑ Single Source ❑ Sole Source
JUSTIFICATION FOR EXCEPTION TO NORMAL PROCUREMENT PROCEDURE!
--------------CERTIFICATION OF AVAILABILITY/NECESSITY----------------
I hereby certify that I have thoroughly reviewed the facts and circumstances of this requested purchase and that (1) the Department has an urgent need/emergency for
the purchase of the goods/services and the emergency Is such that a delay through the use of normal competitive procurement methods to acquire such good /service:
would not be in the public's best Interest and would be detrimental to the City; (2) due to the City's standardization, warranty or other distinctive factors only one sours r
Is available or (3) the supplier of the goods/services requested Is the sole source supplier.
Submitted. Date:
Department Head Signature
Approved: Date:
Ann -Marie Fraser, CPPB, MBA
Procurement/Contracts Manager
Approved: Date:
Paul E. Carlisle, City Manager
mt�
SET"
HOME OF PELICAN 15LAND
CITY OF SEBASTIAN
Procurement Quotation Process
Use this form when havine to obtain quotes to satisfv the Procurement Ordinance 0-06-01
QUOTES REQUIRED FOR ORDERS $2500.01 AND UP
ORDERS OVER $15,000.00 REQUIRE COUNCIL APPROVAL -ATTACH COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES. IF APPLICABLE
Department: Employee Obtaining Quotes:
Item Description:
I VENDOR #1
`VENDOR NAME:
CONTACT NAME:
ADDRESS:
PHONE:
EMAIL ADDRESS:
DATE / TIME
CONTACTED:
EXPECTED
DELIVERY TIME
COMMENTS:
PRICE:
Department Bead Signature:
VENDOR #2
Date:
VENDOR #3
SOLICITATION TYPES
Invitation for Bids (IFB)
A procurement method used to solicit competitive sealed bid responses, sometimes
called a formal bid, when price is the basis for award.
Request for Proposals (RFP) SUbmrhs both qualikahons + cost i nFaro„af-13,
The document used to solicit proposals from potential providers (proposers) for goods
and services. Price is usually not a primary evaluation factor. Provides for the
negotiation of all terms, including price, prior to contract award. May include a provision
for the negotiation of best and final offers. May be a single-step or multi -step process.
Introduced in the Armed Services Procurement Act of 1962 as well as by the
Competition in Contracting Act of 1984.
Request for Qualifications (RFQ) r1sYs �,- of (v },ahun on ii,e a 1d 11+ "
A document, which is issued b a procurement entity to obtain statements of the G'si nogot;otion
Y P Y ol- four and
qualifications of potential responders (development teams or consultants) to gauge reo�,onaiote
potential competition in the marketplace, prior to issuing the solicitation. Compe-laaho"I
Cone of Silence
The Cone of Silence shall be established on all the City's formal competitive solicitations upon its
advertisement. The Cone of Silence prohibits the following activities:
The Cone of Silence prohibits any communication regarding a particular RFP, RFQ or bid solicitation
after they have been advertised. This includes communication between a potential vendor, lobbyist
or consultant and the City's staff, member of the selection committee, Mayor and Council members.
This Cone of Silence is designed to protect the professional integrity of the procurement process by
shielding it from undue influences prior to the recommendation of contract award.
The Cone of Silence shall terminate at the time the Procurement Division and City Manager makes a
written recommendation to the City Council. However, if the City Council refers the City Manager's
recommendation back for further review, the Cone of Silence shall be re-established until such time
a subsequent written recommendation is submitted.
The Cone of Silence shall not apply to:
1. oral communications at pre -bid conferences;
2. oral presentations before evaluation committees;
3. public presentations made to the City Council during any duly noticed public meeting;
4. written communications regarding a particular RFQ, RFP, or bid between a potential vendor,
service provider, Proposer, bidder, lobbyist or consultant and the City's Procurement Division
or City employee designated responsible for administering the procurement process of such
RFQ, RFP, or bid, provided the communication is limited strictly to matters of process or
procedure already contained in the corresponding solicitation document;
5. communications between City staff with the City Attorney and his or her staff;
6. duly noticed site visits to determine the competency of bidders/Proposers regarding a
particular bid/statement during the time period between the opening of bids and the time the
a written recommendation is submitted;
7. any emergency procurement of goods or services pursuant to City Ordinance;
8. responses to the City's request for clarification or additional information;
9. contract negotiations during any duly noticed public meeting;
10. communications to enable City staff to seek and obtain industry comment or perform market
research, provided all communications related thereto between a potential vendor, service
provider, Proposer, bidder, lobbyist, or consultant and any member of the City's professional
staff including, but not limited to, the City Manager and his or her staff are in writing or are
made at a duly noticed public meeting.
Violation of the Cone of Silence by a particular bidder or Proposer may result in disqualification.
Competitive Negotiations Contd.
4. If a district is unable to reach a contract with Applicant
Number 1, then the agency must proceed to negotiate with
Applicant Number 2.
5. If a district is unable to negotiate successfully with Applicant
Number 2, the agency then must negotiate with Applicant
Number3.
6. The district may reject all applicants and re -notice the
project.
tin to influence legislative action or non -action through oral or
or attempting goodwill of a member or employee of the
°°Lobbying" means influencing t to obtain the
Florida written communication or an tt p45 or who contracts for e�no ec
and receives payment, rincipally employed for governor
ntal
Legislature. Fla. s at. eersoAnnwho is employed yerson who is p person or governmental
"Lobbyist' means a p purpose of lobbying, or a p
governmental entity to lobby on behalf o£that other p
consideration, for the pure
affairs by another person or g
entity. Fla. Stat. Ann• § 11.045. or in a formal
who represents a client in a judicial proceeding
an attorney tr before an agency, board, commissio acting in the
Does not include (1) or any other formal hearing
administrative proceeding to ee of an agancy or legislative or judtcc �a t �'��ormation to be
of this state; (2) an amp y roviding
authority (3) a confidential informant P
normal course of his or her dutioeses; a person who lobbies to procure a contract less than $20,000. Fla
used for law enforc 5 & 28 017.
Stat. Ann. §
commissiperson shall provide a statement
such person has registered as a lobb eisa with
Upon fegistration t ecp registration shall be due upon
not lobby an agency until year basis ther The principal shall also identify
p person may and is renewable on a calendar registrant is authorized to represent the principal- the commission.
retained to lobby lobbyist pursuant to a classification system approved by
initially being rincipays representative that the reg
rinci al or p that lobby' P
signed by the principal
p
and designate its main business on the statement authorizing
Floridalobbylst.gov
CITY OF SEBASTIAN
SEBASTIAN CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING
FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONVENING
ATTORNEY -CLIENT SESSION
CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS
1225 MAIN STREET, SEBASTIAN, FLORIDA
NOVEMBER, 26, 2019
5:01 p.m.
APPEARANCES
ED DODD, Mayor
CHARLES MAUTI, Vice Mayor
PAUL CARLISLE, City Manager
JIM HILL, Council Member
DAMIEN GILLIAMS, Council Member
PAMELA PARRIS, Council Member
JAMES STOKES, City Attorney
DAN ABBOTT, Attorney with Weiss Serota Helfman Cole &
Bierman
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
N
1 THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD:
2 MR. STOKES: Just like to start by reminding
3 everybody that this is a closed session under
4 Florida Statute, but there is court reporter in the
5 room. The court reporter is going to take down
6 everything that's said. It will, eventually, become
7 public record. Make that admonishment because, in
8 my years of experience, I'm sure you guys have dealt
9 with it too, sometimes being in a closed room,
10 people kind of let their tongue get out in front of
11 them and start badmouthing the other side or
12 whatever. It's like, wait a minute, this will all
13 come out some day. So we're a little cautious.
14 The statute provides that the discussions --
15 first of all, it's, basically, a workshop format
16 that is to educate you on the case to get some
17 direction when it comes to litigation expenses and
18 strategy. But this isn't a meeting. So no formal
19 action can be taken here. So anything that you give
20 us direction on, if you want to memorialize it in a
21 formal action, that would have to take place at the
22 next regular city council meeting. So just the way
23 the statute is set up. Again, they don't want
24 actual governmental action taking place behind
25 closed doors.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
i7
1 So that said, we do have two of them. We're
2 doing them separately. The transcripts will be done
3 separately. Mr. Abbott is not staying for the
4 second one because he's involved in that case. So
5 we're going to do the first one first so that he can
6 get back on the road and get home. That's the
7 Autobahn case, which might be the one that we have a
8 little bit more to go over anyway. So that said,
9 everyone's familiar with this case.
10 First of all, the Autobahn case, it's not a
11 traditional litigation case. In actuality, we
12 haven't, quote/unquote, been sued over anything.
13 It's not a tort case. It's not a liability case or
14 anything.
is What was filed is under Florida Statute, when
16 an annexation is done, voluntary annexation
17 specifically in this case, if anybody who has an
18 interest in what was done wants to challenge that
19 governmental action, they can file a petition for
20 writ of certiorari. It's a very specific writ that
21 is filed, which isn't alleging anything other than
22 this governmental action was done, and we don't
23 think it was done properly, so we want to have that
24 reviewed. The Court will look at it; hear it from
25 both sides; and, ultimately, make a decision as to
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
M
1 whether it was done properly or not. If the Court
2 finds that it wasn't done properly, the only result
3 the Court will do will be to send it back to have it
4 done again.
5 There's no money -- and what I mean by this is
6 no money damages. There would be no injunctive
7 relief, like the Court couldn't order us to do
8 something else. Like, let's say they found that the
9 acreage was wrong. They could say, Well, it was
10 1100 acres. We're going to say 500 acres was
11 proper. You know, they won't get into that, because
12 it's not a traditional lawsuit. It's just you guys
13 did a governmental action. The judge is going to
14 say was it done right or was it not. If there was
i5 there some flaw in the process, we're going to send
16 back to be done again. So that's where we're at on
17 this.
18 So the remedies are pretty limited, and the
19 exposure is pretty limited. Worst case scenario is
20 we end up with a do -over. But because it is
21 governmental action, we have an obligation, as a
22 city government, to defend the actions of the
23 council, you know, what the council did. That's
24 what we will respond to. If the judge says it was
25 wrong, then we take our lumps and we fix it in any
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
5
1
way that the judge points out.
2
But we do have an obligation to, one, defend
3
the actions that the government did. This is no
4
different than like at the state level. If somebody
5
challenges a constitutionality of the statute, the
6
attorney general has an obligation to defend the
state and say, no, the statute isn't
8
unconstitutional. So it's that obligation to defend
9
the government action.
10
And then the second element of it here is
11
we also have a contract. We have a contract
12
with the property owner. Because part of the
13
annexation was a annexation agreement. That
14
agreement constitutes a contract. So we have
i5
an obligation to do what we can to defend that
16
contract. And, otherwise, if we didn't defend
17
that contract, then we could be exposed to
18
contract damages on behalf of that property
19
owner. Don't know that that would ever happen,
20
but it is a possibility. Of course, lawyer's
21
job is always to tell you the worst -case
22
scenarios.
23
That said, I don't know if we want to get
24
a little bit into the background, why we feel
25
that it was done properly. Certainly, I can
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
I
1 kick this to one of you guys, if you want to
2 chime in or not. So please just kick me under
3 the table or throw something at me if you have
4 something to say.
5 But the issue involved here -- and this is
6 what's really important, because I think the issues
7 have kind of gotten very clouded. Everybody in the
8 rooms knows all the stuff that we've been dealing
9 with on this. What's really important to remember
10 is that the only thing that is subject to challenge
11 or that is being challenged right now is the
12 annexation. And that has, basically, three elements
13 of it.
14 The annexation has, was there a proper due
15 process. Like, were the notices properly given?
16 Was it properly publicized? And was there a proper
17 hearing? So that due process element. Then, is the
18 property contiguous to a current city boundary? And
19 then, is it reasonably compact? All three of those
20 things, of course, have definitions. They all have
21 tons and tons of published case opinions that define
22 what contiguous means, what reasonably compact
23 means, what process is required to take place. And
24 so that's, based upon all that body of law out
25 there, we had this thing on the track that we feel
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
7
1 was a proper track.
2 All of the other stuff that's come out of it,
3 that's flowed out of it -- and there was even at one
4 point a move to stay this case while the county had
5 the opportunity to talk to us about density and
6 roads and green space and building heights and the
7 road extractions and all that. Those things are all
8 legitimate issues to discuss, but they're not part
9 of the annexation. The annexation ordinance is just
10 process, contiguous, and reasonably compact.
11 That's, ultimately, why when the county filed
12 their only Notice 164. It wanted us to have our
13 meeting. It's not that we didn't want to sit down
14 and talk with them again. Part of what the judge
is found in that proceeding is, the county wants to
16 talk to the city about density and building height
17 and green space, and those are not elements to the
18 annexation. The annexation only has contiguous,
19 compact, and process.
20 So what we're looking at right now and what
21 we're responding to, because the Autobahn's -- just
22 to let you know, again, because I said this wasn't a
23 traditional litigation case. There's no discovery
24 in it or anything. This is a review of the record.
25 They filed a petition with their allegations in it.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
G
1 The judge looks at it. The judge is satisfied that
2 they make at least a prima facie showing. Then they
3 have the other side file a response to address those
4 issues. So that response has been prepared.
5 And then once those are done, at best, the next
6 step would be the judge might order oral arguments
7 or not. The judge could just look at their pleading
8 and look at our response and decide for herself.
9 It's Judge Metzger, by the way, who is handling
10 this.
11 Or the Judge may say, okay, I've read both
12 sides. I want to give the parties the opportunity
13 to come in and present oral arguments, and then I'll
14 decide. We don't know yet what Judge Metzger will
15 do. But that is where we're at right now. We're
16 waiting for the judge to decide. Does she decide it
17 on the papers or does she want to have oral
18 arguments at some point? Either way, at some point
19 in time, I would say within the next 30 days or so,
20 we'll probably be getting an order from her. She
21 will either send it back for a do -over or she will
22 affirm what was done already.
23
So
anything to
add oe include or anything?
24
MR.
ABBOTT:
I think that's an excellent
25 introduction, and perhaps we should invite any
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
I
1 questions.
2 MR. STOKES: Any questions?
3 MS. PARRIS: The county's concern is the
4 comprehensive plan, not the annexation, which are
5 two different completely issues. One is addressing
6 annexation. Once again, three elements to it. If
7 you could just repeat those.
8 MR. STOKES: The elements are the process,
9 whether the process was done right; whether it's
10 contiguous, meaning does it touch a current city
11 boundary; and is it reasonably compact. Where that
12 reasonable compact comes from is, like let's say
13 we're sitting up here and there's a big new mall
14 going in down along Indrio Road. So we annex a long
i5 strip so that we can capture this mall. That's what
16 they don't want to have happen. They look at it to
17 say, well, are you doing a reasonably compact area
18 and is it contiguous to a current city boundary?
19 MR. MAUTI: So, in essence, this was
20 leapfrogged by taking that first portion of land to
21 get contiguous land mass, and then bringing the
22 second 1,000 acres in. Am I correct or incorrect?
23 MR. STOKES: Well, that was one of the
24 things -- do you want to address?
25 MR. DODD: That's what they're saying.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
10
1 MR. STOKES: Right. That was one of the
2 allegations, because the area north of 510 was
3 brought in last year, as a county administrator even
4 said to the county commission at the time that we
5 saw that annexation come through.
6 We did comment on it. County did comment on
it. But their only comment at the time was they
8 wanted us to take an extraction for road widening.
9 That was their only comment. We didn't address
10 that, and they dropped it. That annexation went
11 through.
12 So once an annexation ordinance is passed and
13 the 30-day appeal period passes, then it's in the
14 books. And but they're claiming there was some sort
15 of evil design to do that first in order to get to
16 this piece. I wasn't here at the time, so I don't
17 know if there was evil design or not truth. But the
18 truth of the matter is, I don't know if I'd call it
19 evil design or strategy, even if that was the
20 intention, there's not nothing illegal about it.
21 Since they're all voluntary annexations,
22 property owners can do it the way they want it. I
23 feel, well, I'm going to do this and then this and
24 then this, that would be their option.
25 MR. DODD: I think that the property owner,
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1_1
1 primarily Bass, who is the president, CEO of Graves
2 Brothers Corporation, one of the heirs to the Graves
3 brothers family. I think he was kind of sceptical.
4 He did that first annexation to see what would
5 happen. He makes his own timeframe. He owns the
6 land, and he's the one that wants to decide when he
7 approaches Sebastian for annexation.
8 We've had conversations. I had conversations
9 personally with him about, why don't we just do it
10 all?
11 He said, well, I've got a 78-acre encumbrance
12 on part of it where somebody else owns it. There
13 were some things like that that came into bigger,
14 that he wasn't really interested in doing that.
15 Quite frankly, when you're dealing with a
16 voluntarily annexation, you're somewhat constrained
17 about what you can do. I understand that the
18 arguments are really moot as far as this case is
19 concerned. I understand the arguments about, they
20 came to you, and you could do this, and so forth. I
21 will tell you that when you voluntarily go to a
22 doctor, if you tell him what you want done and he
23 doesn't do it, you're still sick.
24 So I think that we did not go helter-skelter
25 into playing any type of grand design with him.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
12
1 Believe me, if there was a conspiracy underway, we
2 did a really bad job hiding it through emails. I'm
3 not one to believe most governments can do
4 conspiracies. They can't keep their mouth shut long
5 enough. It just doesn't happen that way.
6 This was controlled and directed by the
7 individual who owned the property. This is what
8 they wanted to do. There wasn't any grand
9 conspiracy to do that.
10 They are saying that it was illegal because we
11 took a small piece and then a second piece. Then,
12 oh, my God, we're now going to do the other
13 500 acres. Well, I don't know whether we'll do the
14 other 500 acres or not. After all this, he may
15 never go back and ask us. He may go to Fellsmere.
16 I don't know the answer to that, what he does. But
17 I don't think there was any grand design to do that.
18 MR. STOKES: I think the bottom line that's
19 important for this is that knowing that there are
20 property rights involved. When you own property,
21 you guys all own property, when you own property,
22 you have the right to develop your property. They
23 have the right to develop the property.
24 The question is whether they're going to
25 develop it under county ordinances or city
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
13
1 ordinances. That's where a lot of the
2 misinformation was getting frustrating. Because,
3 like, for instance, everyone kept talking about
4 septic tanks. We have a city ordinance that does
5 not allow for septic tanks. They have to connect to
6 a sewer system. That's their only option.
7 If they stay to the county and develop it under
8 the county, the county will actually allow septic
9 tanks. In fact, did just approve a property --
10 MR. CARLISLE: It's not completely approved
11 yet. It's going through the process.
12 MR. STOKES: And they do it elsewhere.
13 MR. HILL: But the Growth Department has stated
14 that they don't have to connect to water and sewer,
15 which would allow them to put separately.
16 MR. DODD: That's what out here in the service
17 area.
18 MR. HILL: That's correct.
19 MR. DODD: That piece of property is inside the
20 service area.
21 MR. HILL: It's part of Sebastian as well.
22 MR. GILLIAMS: Can I speak, Mr. Mayor?
23 MR. DODD: Yes.
24 MR. GILLIAMS: So, Mr. Abbott, welcome.
25 MR. ABBOTT: Yes, sir. Thank you for having
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
14
1 me, sir.
2 MR. GILLIAMS: Thank you for being here.
3 Charles; myself, Damien; and Pam were just
4 elected. We were elected on two main issues:
5 Annexation, spraying. Two foremost important issues
6 in the community. I'm not sure how you instructed
7 previously. You said that you have a response
8 already prepared?
9 MR. ABBOTT: Yes, sir. The response, per the
10 order of the judge, is due on Monday. And we have
11 most of the response prepared and our planning is
12 timely filing it.
13 MR. GILLIAMS: That could be an issue, because
14 we're not sure. I haven't had a chance to look at
i5 the response. Do we get a chance to look at the
16 response?
17 MR. DODD: No.
18 MR. STOKES: No.
19 MR. GILLIAMS: We don't get a chance to look
20 under the law?
21 MR. DODD: If you're interested in changing the
22 process that we're following, we can put that on the
23 agenda for the December 11th meeting.
24 MR. GILLIAMS: Hold on one second.
25 MR. DODD: I'm just telling you.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
15
1 MR. GILLIAMS: No, no. I'm asking the
2 attorney. I want to hear it right from the
3 attorney.
4 Mr. Abbott, are we entitled to take a look at
5 that response and have a say in it?
6 MR. ABBOTT: Well, that's really a local
7 matter. There's nothing that would be illegal, for
8 instance, for you to see the draft response, what
9 your local procedures are in terms of that. I'm not
10 familiar --
11 MR. GILLIAMS: So not a Florida Statute,
12 correct?
13 MR. ABBOTT: Absolutely not.
14 MR. GILLIAMS: So if three votes direct you to
15 turn over the response that you prepared to us, you
16 would have to do that, correct?
17 MR. DODD: We'll take that on the 11th, Damien.
18 MR. GILLIAMS: Excuse me.
19 MR. DODD: I'm interrupting you.
20 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm going to call a point of
21 order.
22 MR. DODD: We'll take that vote on December 11.
23 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm speaking to the attorney. I
24 didn't interrupt you when you spoke. I sat here
25 very quietly. Please, don't make me call a point of
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
16
1 order, because there's procedures we must follow.
2 So if we give you three votes, from the group
3 of five here, to direct you to give us copy of your
4 response, will you give us a copy of that response?
5 MR. ABBOTT: I would suspect so. I would
6 suspect you would probably ask your city attorney to
7 ask me to provide it to you. But I would imagine,
8 yes.
9 MR. GILLIAMS: Obviously, we can't do an action
10 right now. We'd have to call a special meeting,
11 because you said that's due by Monday?
12 MR. ABBOTT: The response is due by Monday.
13 Yes, sir, I agree with your city attorney, that you
14 cannot take official action here in an executive
i5 session. It would have to be a public meeting.
16 MR. GILLIAMS: Right. And we would have to
17 call for a special emergency meeting to take a look
18 at that response. Because that response that you're
19 going to give may not be what the other three new
20 council members are looking for you to do, since you
21 are retained by the city, correct?
22 MR. ABBOTT: Council member, if your point is
23 that under the new leadership of city, the city
24 might want to retreat from the annexation, then,
25 yes, there's obviously some actions that you would
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
17
1 take to try to retreat from the previous annexation.
2 MR. GILLIAMS: I would like to hear those
3 options. Would you elaborate on that?
4 MR. DODD: Let me ask a question first. Has
5 anybody on the Sebastian City Council have any
6 conversations with anybody on the county commission,
7 the county staff, the county attorney, or the
8 attorney for the plaintiff in this case?
9 MS. PARRIS: Yes.
10 MR. HILL: No, I have not.
11 MR. DODD: You have?
12 MR. GILLIAMS: I have not.
13 MR. DODD: Did anybody else have conversations?
14 Charles?
15 MR. MAUTI: No.
16 MR. DODD: What were the conversations?
17 MS. PARRIS: Attorney Reingold.
18 MR. DODD: What did Attorney Reingold advise
19 you to do?
20 MS. PARRIS: He didn't give me any advice.
21 MR. GILLIAMS: Can we proceed now?
22 MR. DODD: We can proceed, but we're going to
23 take a vote on the 11th.
24 MR. GILLIAMS: What was my last -- would you
25 repeat the last question I possessed and presented
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
INI
I to Mr. Abbott?
2 MR. ABBOTT: I think I remember, Council
3 Member. You were going to ask me what you would do
4 if you wanted to retreat from the earlier ordinance.
5 MR. GILLIAMS: Correct. What are the options
6 available to us?
7 MR. ABBOTT: Well, I would expect you would
8 probably do the following. I don't think that you
9 can undo the ordinance. I don't think you could
10 rescind it or reconsider it or something. The
11 ordinance is the ordinance, and it's final.
12 But the ordinance is being challenged, I
13 suppose that the council might make a vote to,
14 perhaps, confess error or some other means in
is connection with that appeal to, I guess essentially,
16 have the petition for writ of certiorari be
17 successful and encourage the judge to find the
18 annexation to have been improper.
19 As the city attorney told you, there would be
20 some ancillary implications of that, including the
21 contract that --
22 MR. GILLIAMS: That's what I was going to get
23 at.
24
MR.
ABBOTT: --
with the property owner.
25
MR.
GILLIAMS:
That was going to be my next
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
19
1 question. So tell me exactly what would happen if
2 the -- now, here's the other thing let me throw at
3 you.
4 MR. ABBOTT: Yes, sir.
5 MR. GILLIAMS: You can set that aside too,
6 can't you? We can get maybe the other side,
7 petition to have them set that aside?
8 MR. ABBOTT: You mean with the property owner?
9 It's a contract with the property owner.
10 MR. GILLIAMS: Yeah. Can we --
11 MR. ABBOTT: You could not unilaterally end
12 that contract. I suppose you could have discussions
13 with the property owner to see if he's in agreement
14 to terminate that contract. But you could not do
15 that unilaterally. That's now a binding contract
16 between you and the property owner.
17 MR. GILLIAMS: But we can petition the Court to
18 set it aside, can we not?
19 MR. ABBOTT: Well, certainly not in this
20 proceeding. If you had grounds, I suppose you could
21 file an original action whose intent is to try to
22 cancel the contract. I'm not sure what your grounds
23 would be.
24 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm not sure either. I'm
25 exploring.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
20
1 MR. ABBOTT: Yes, sir.
2 MR. GILLIAMS: And you, as the attorney, I'm
3 hoping you could tell us how we can go about doing
4 that, if it's possible.
5 MR. ABBOTT: There are grounds to invalidate a
6 contract. Hypothetically, maybe the contract wasn't
7 signed. Hypothetically, maybe one of the
8 signatories to the contract didn't have the capacity
9 to contract. There are a variety of ways to attack
10 the validity of a contract.
11 None of them jumps out at me here. This seems
12 to have been a contract that was authorized to be
13 signed and was signed by both parties.
14 MR. GILLIAMS: Well, and I'm not sure what the
15 other council members are thinking, but I personally
16 would like for you to take a look to see how we can
17 set it aside and amend it, petition to get it set
18 aside and try to amend it. I don't know what your
19 thoughts are. I don't know if you looked into that.
20 MR. ABBOTT: I have not looked into --
21 MR. DODD: Why don't we talk about the
22 annexation? Are you saying that you don't want the
23 annexation?
24 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm talking about --
25 MR. DODD: No, let's just -- there is only one
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 issue.
21
2 MR. GILLIAMS: I am talking about --
3 MR. DODD: Because we're not talking about all
4 the other stuff.
5 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm looking for a way to rehear
6 this.
7 MR. DODD: Excuse me?
8 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm looking for a way to rehear
9 the annexation.
10 MR. DODD: Okay. What I'm asking you is, are
11 you saying you do not want the annexation to go
12 through?
13 MR. GILLIAMS: That's not what I said. What I
14 said was, I'd like to rehear it, the annexation.
15 MR. DODD: And the reason for you wanting to
16 rehear it is?
17 MR. GILLIAMS: The public and tax payers had
18 asked us to give them time and due process and pause
19 at that last meeting when they had the annexation,
20 and we did not afford them that. We did not -- and
21 from reading the complaint from the other side,
22 obviously, it looks like we did not give them due
23 process.
24 I'm throwing these questions out to the
25 attorney, because we're paying him a lot of money to
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
22
1 advise us. There's three new people here on the
2 council. I know, personally, I'm taking a different
3 approach. I know what they said on the campaign
4 trail.
5 But I can tell you, we're looking to pause
6 this, to set it aside, to slow it down, and take
7 another look at this. And at the same time,
8 mitigate any problems with the annexation agreement,
9 recourse, as far as legal fees from the Graves
10 Brothers. I mean, I want to look at the whole
11 thing.
12 I want to be able to have a vote here to
13 instruct the attorney before he goes ahead and
14 proceeds with that response, to have a chance to
15 review it now that there's three new board members,
16 and maybe redirection. I'm just giving you the
17 overall picture of what I'm thinking. I'm not sure
18 what they're thinking.
19 MR. DODD: Let's set around this. Before we
20 get ourselves in a situation where we're now in
21 court with the Graves Brothers, and, quite frankly,
22 I don't think that there's any way we could defend
23 an action with the Graves Brothers that causes them,
24 the issues that's going to cause with them to do
25 what you want to do.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
23
1 Your reality, you're talking about opening us
2 up to the county. You're talking about before this
3 is over, with turning over the execution of the City
4 of Sebastian to the county commission, not to the
5 City of Sebastian. So let's get real about the
6 annexation.
7 MS. PARRIS: I'm not opposed to the annexation.
8 But I'd also like --
9 MR. DODD: But let me get to talk about the
10 annexation. This court case is purely about the
11 annexation. We have a separate process that we're
12 going to go through. A separate process we're going
13 to go through is 164 process with the county. There
14 will be ample opportunities during that 164 process
15 for us to discuss a lot of the issues that people
16 talked about.
17 I'm not going to get into details, but I read
18 all of the stuff that was produced on Next Door and
19 all of the web sites about this annexation during
20 the campaign. I can tell you, I didn't get involved
21 because I wasn't running. I wish I had, because I
22 could have countered a whole bunch of that stuff.
23 Most of it was really not based in true fact.
24 I know there were issues. We cut down to three
25 minutes. We cut down to three minutes on the public
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
24
1 input during the meeting. That's primarily because
2 we had so many people who wanted to talk. In
3 hindsight, there's lots of things we could have done
4 different. But there was nothing illegal about the
5 process that we went through when you do that.
6 The question is, do we want to interrupt the
7 annexation, which will set us up for a liability
8 with Graves Brothers, or do we want to finalize this
9 case, get it out of the way, and then go into the
10 164 process with the county? And in the 164 process
11 with the county, they can deal with that.
12 MR. HILL: If I could real quick. I would also
13 like to just interject that the concerns of all of
14 those involved were, and I heard it a million times,
15 oh, we're not opposed the annexation, but we want to
16 make this, sure want to make sure this. Well, you
17 guys have complete control with three members on the
18 city council. I don't know, Damien apparently
19 speaks for three of you. I don't believe that to be
20 the case. But he, apparently, thinks he does with
21 the wes and the words.
22 However, I will say this, that the city has
23 control and the city is in your control. So you're
24 the ones who will say yea or nay to densities in
25 going through the process through the
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
25
1 comprehensive -- not the comprehensive.
2 MR. DODD: The 164 process.
3 MR. HILL: Not even the 164 process. I'm
4 talking about, we have processes --
5 MR. DODD: Yes. We have to go through the site
6 planning.
7 MR. HILL: The site planning.
8 MR. DODD: The PUD, it has to be approved by
9 the council.
to MS. PARRIS: That's the important part, right.
11 MR. DODD: The PUD has to come back to the
12 council. Now is not the time for us to create a
13 liability to the city --
14 MS. PARRIS: I understand.
15 MR. DODD: -- when we have ample opportunity in
16 the future to address these things. We can address
17 during the PUD process. The preliminary plat has to
18 be approved by council. The PUD has to be approved
19 by the council. We have to go through this 164
20 process with the county.
21 I'll guarantee you, part of that 164 process
22 with the county, there's going to be give and take
23 on both sides. We're going to have to give up
24 something, they're going to have to give up
25 something. That's just the way it's going work.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
W.
1 But if we take that stand that Damien wants to
2 take right now, then we're creating a potential
3 liability for ourselves. I don't know what we get
4 out of it. I don't what the gain is, if the
5 annexation is not the issue.
6 My suggestion, get this out of way so we can
7 talk about it. I'd love to have had workshops last
8 week to talk with people about the annexation.
9 MS. PARRIS: I agree.
10 MR. DODD: I even brought that up. We can't do
11 that because we got a gag order on this from this
12 judge. So we can't do any of this stuff. Get this
13 out of the way. Then let's sit down and schedule
14 some work sessions so we can talk to the public
15 about it. Let's find out what the public wants us
16 to.
17 Where do you want us to go before we go in and
18 talk to the county commission? I don't have problem
19 with that.
20 MR. STOKES: I just want to make sure that you
21 guys understand something that I think is getting
22 lost in all this. And you are right about the site
23 plan on that. But there's a bigger element to this.
24 The future land use map, the comprehensive plan
25 changed that the hearings were both heard that one
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
27
1 night. But for the future land use map, that was
2 the first reading. After that it had to go up to
3 the state and come back. That hasn't been heard on
4 second reading.
5 So all the comprehensive plan stuff, meaning
6 the density, what the various uses are going to be,
7 how much green space is going to be on there, all
8 that, that hasn't been finally decided. That's
9 coming to you guys. It's coming to this council
10 probably in January or February, in the next six
11 months.
12 MR. DODD: January or February. We spent the
13 month of January having work sessions with people to
14 review that.
is MS. PARRIS: Excellent.
16 MR. STOKES: Just to make sure you know that
17 that still is undecided.
18 MR. CARLISLE: That's what I was going to say,
19 Mr. Mayor, is that's our opportunity to sit down
20 with the county, sit down with city council, sit
21 down with the property owner, and look at all those
22 elements that are in that future land use. Now, if
23 we change it dramatically, it will have to go back
24 to the state. So it's your opportunity during the
25 future land use.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
W
1 Then you get a second bite of the apple when
2 they go in for zoning. Because future land use is
3 not zoning. So when they come in for zoning
4 opportunities or PUD segments, you have another bite
5 of the apple to restrict how that development goes.
6 MR. GILLIAMS: So can I interject here for a
7 minute without being interrupted? So I'd like to
8 get a consensus on putting this whole thing,
9 instructing the attorney who is handling it, I'd
10 like to get a consensus from the board members to
11 take a look at his response. I would like get a
12 consensus not only to take a look at his response,
13 but possibly redirect him and seeing what he can do
14 to get us to set aside the annexation agreement.
15 Also, setting aside a possibility to get this to
16 come back for a rehearing.
17 I understand the other side's issues that they
18 raised. The annexation and the land use amendment
19 were done together. They were also done not
20 properly noticed with the reduction in time.
21 MS. PARRIS: That's the problem.
22 MR. GILLIAMS: And we owe it --
23 MR. HILL: That's not true.
24 MR. GILLIAMS: Excuse me.
25 MR. HILL: That's not true.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
29
1 MR. GILLIAMS: Excuse me, Jim. I have the
2
floor.
3
MR.
HILL: It's not telling the truth, Damien.
4
MR.
GILLIAMS: Excuse me. I have the floor.
5
MR.
HILL: You're not telling the truth.
6
MR.
GILLIAMS: Mr. Mayor, you're going to
7
control
this meeting?
8
MR.
DODD: No. I'm going to tell you what I'm
9
going to do --
10
MR.
GILLIAMS: You're going to interrupt? Can
11
I make
a point of order? Can I make a point of
12
order?
13
MR.
DODD: Damien, you don't have the right,
14
you don't have the right to your own truth. That
15
was said
in the meeting --
16
MR.
GILLIAMS: I'm asking for a point of order.
17
MR.
DODD: Go ahead. Raise it, and I'll rule
18 on it.
19 MR. GILLIAMS: You don't rule on it. There's
20 three votes.
21 MR. DODD: Yes, Damien, a point of order, I
22 rule on it.
23 MR. GILLIAMS: Mr. Attorney, you want to
24 explain the rules of order?
25 MR. DODD: Point of order rule on, and then you
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
I can bring it up for a vote if you don't --
2 MR. GILLIAMS: Well, I want to bring it up for
3 a vote. I want to have a point of --
4 MR. DODD: You haven't expressed your point of
5
order.
6
MR.
GILLIAMS: You keep interrupting me while
I'm speaking. I have a
right to speak without being
8
interrupted.
9
MR.
DODD: Okay.
Go ahead.
10
MR.
GILLIAMS: So
I'm asking the other members
11
to vote
on that. That's
my point of order.
12
MR.
DODD: I'm going
to rule that you're
13
correct,
you do have a
right to speak without being
14
interrupted. So you don't need a vote.
15
MR.
GILLIAMS: So
can I continue?
16
MR.
DODD: You can
continue.
17
MR.
GILLIAMS: I'll
let you know when I'm done.
18 Please.
19 MR. DODD: You got the floor for now until
20 tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. I've already announced a
21 meeting if it goes that long.
22 MR. GILLIAMS: This is not a joke, Mr. Mayor.
23 MR. DODD: Believe me, I know it's not a joke.
24 I've lived with it for three months.
25 MR. GILLIAMS: So with that being said, I want
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
31
1 my feelings heard, and I want to be able to make
2 sure the other council members understand what I'm
3 thinking. So, again, without being interrupted, I
4 would like to take a look at the response that you
5 were directed, because there's now three new people
6 on the council. We may want to redirect you. We
7 want to hear from you, the city attorney
8 representing us on this lawsuit.
9 The issues, I understand the issues, and I
10 think that we don't have to give up anything. I
11 think that you can do some sort of relief, temporary
12 relief so we can get a rehearing.
13 I don't want to bring any liability to the
14 Graves Brothers. If we can set that aside while we
i5 argue. You argued the point that, hey, the new city
16 council is looking to rehear this properly with
17 proper notification to the people, proper maps being
18 descriptive, legal descriptions being done
19 correctly, a proper venue so that everybody could be
20 heard. If that's done in that manner, then I don't
21 think you're going to have any issues with the
22 annexation, if everybody gets a chance to be heard
23 properly.
24 Lack of due process afforded to the
25 petitioners. And it's all in the compliant, if you
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
32
1 look at it and you read it. And I'm sure the
2 attorney that's representing us will tell us ways,
3 if we direct him with the proper votes, to direct
4 him on how the majority of us want to do this. Not
5 what the Mayor and Council Member Jim Hill got us
6 into. We want to backtrack this thing. We want to
7 stop. We want to relook at it.
8 And my position is, I want to get it to a
9 rehearing with the least amount of mitigation and
10 issues to the Graves Brothers. I think that that
11 could be done.
12 I'm waiting to hear from the attorney, but
13 everybody wants to speak on behalf of him. And I'm
14 paying this guy a lot of money to advise us. If
15 there is three votes, so if we can get a consensus
16 to go in that direction, then we can stop wasting
17 our time on you guys trying to sell us on what we
18 need to do.
19 MR. DODD: All right. Are you finished?
20 MR. GILLIAMS: Hold on one second. The three
21 minutes was inappropriate. There was 90 seconds
22 that went for the annexation, 90 seconds for the
23 land use. They were combined together. They should
24 have been done separately.
25 Asking the Court for a rehearing for the city
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
33
1 is not anything new in these situations.
2 I mentioned the legal description and the
3 annexation, the 78, because that was done first.
4 Then the second one that came later, I think there's
5 an issue there with the amount of property that
6 aligns with the previous, the first annexation.
7 And then if we can get the annexation agreement
8 set aside, I'd like to get a consensus on this
9 board. If the other members say no, then we can
to move in another direction.
11 MR. DODD: Are you done now?
12 MR. GILLIAMS: Yes, I am.
13 MR. STOKES: Let me just make a point. I'm a
14 board certified local government attorney. I know
15 Dan is too. Twenty-five years of doing this, I've
16 never, ever had a city council ask to review a
17 pleading before it was filed. And I'm not even sure
18 it's appropriate.
19 All the issues that have been raised are legal
20 issues. Quite frankly, that's why you have
21 attorneys, to make the legal issues. So we can sit
22 here and argue these.
23 You're right, we didn't use the five minutes
24 under the resolution, which are the council
25 policies. But as we've pointed out in our response,
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
34
1 right in that same policy it says that those can be
2 changed at a majority vote of council. That's what
3 happened that night. And it goes on.
4 Whether or not there's enough contiguous space,
5 that's a matter of case law. That's why lawyers
6 argue it and a judge decides it, whether or not
7 there's enough contiguous border between the annex
8 areas and stuff.
9 Ultimately, we work for you guys. It's just
10 not the process that's ever used.
11 MR. DODD: Let me put you two on the spot.
12 Kind of like a foul line, give you a foul shot and
13 I'm the coach and I want to know if you're going to
14 make it. My question to you is this: Is there, in
15 your legal opinion, because I understand the
16 experience that you both have, in your legal
17 opinion, not knowing that a judge -- there's
18 absolutely no way to know what's going to happen
19 when you walk into a courtroom. I understand that.
20 But in your legal opinion, are we defensible in this
21 suit?
22 MR. GILLIAMS: Point of order.
23 MR. DODD: No, I'm not --
24 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm asking for a point of order.
25 I'm asking for a point of order. You're directing
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
35
1 questions on an attorney that's about to lead the
2 city. We have a hired attorney who specializes in
3 this.
4 MR. DODD: Damien, I'm ruling against you.
5 Will you just sit back, please.
6 MR. GILLIAMS: Can I have a point of order?
7 MR. DODD: No, you do not. I ruled against it.
8 I asked a question that's a reasonable --
9 MR. GILLIAMS: Mr. Attorney, can I get a point
10 of order?
11 MR. DODD: I'm going to bring this up for a
12 vote. Let's find out how much power you actually
13 have, my friend. I asked a reasonable question of
14 these two attorneys, and you do want to me to ask
15 it. I'd like a voice vote right now on whether you
16 agree that Damien should sit back and let the
17 attorneys answer the question.
18 MR. GILLIAMS: It's my point of order.
19 MR. DODD: I ruled against you.
20 MR. GILLIAMS: It's my point of order. You got
21 to act on my point of order.
22 MR. DODD: I ruled against you.
23 MR. GILLIAMS: You don't have the right to do
24 that.
25 MR. DODD: Yes, I do.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 MR. GILLIAMS; Mr. Attorney, you want to
2 advise?
3 MR. STOKES: The Chair rules.
4 MR. DODD: The Chair rules on a point of order.
5 And then if you don't like my ruling, you can bring
6 it up for a vote.
MR. GILLIAMS: And I'm bringing it up for a
8 vote.
9 MR. DODD: Now, I'm asking, Mr. Mauti, how do
10 you vote on that?
11 MR. MAUTI: No.
12 MR. DODD: No what?
13 MR. MAUTI: On his point of order.
14 MR. DODD: No on his point of order. Okay.
i5 Ms. Parris?
16 MS. PARRIS: I'd like to hear the answer from
17 the attorneys.
18 MR. DODD: That's a no. Mr. Hill?
19 MR. HILL: No.
20 MR. DODD: And I vote no. You've been
21 out -voted four to one.
22 Now, the attorneys, would you please answer my
23 question.
24 MR. STOKES: I'm sorry, I don't even remember
25 your question.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
37
1 MR. DODD: My question was very simple. You've
2 seen the case. You've seen the response. What I
3 would like to know is, do we have -- we're talking
4 purely about - and I want to bring this up - we're
5 talking purely about the annexation issue here.
6 We're not talking about all this other stuff.
7 Purely about the annexation issue. When we present
8 our -- I'm sorry.
9 MR. MAUTI: We're talking strictly about this
10 case here?
11 MR. DODD: This case. Strictly about this
12 case. When we present our brief to the judge, in
13 your legal opinion, do we have a better than even
14 shot that we would prevail in that case?
15 MR. ABBOTT: In my opinion, I'll let Dan speak
16 for himself, and he's free to answer any way he
17 wants, but if there were legal issues that I was
18 concerned with that I thought that we were going to
19 get ruled against us, I would be the first one to
20 manage that and tell you that. And that's why we
21 meet privately, so I can tell you the weaknesses in
22 the case.
23 The issues, in looking through the complaint,
24 the petition here -- first of all, the Autobahn site
25 brings up a whole lot of issues that aren't part of
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
GIN
I the annexation dispute. And that's why I told you
2 earlier. They want to talk about density. They
3 want to talk about septic tanks, all that. All of
4 that is not part of it.
5 MS. PARRIS: It was never clarified from the
6 beginning. That's why the public is so confused and
7 upset.
8 MR. STOKES: Right. If we had this all to do
9 over again, that would probably be my thing, is to
10 tell the Graves Brothers, let's do the annexation.
11 And when it's done, then we'll talk land use with
12 you. But that ship has sailed now.
13 As far as the issues that they bring up, the
14 contiguousness, the case that they rely on where
15 they say that there's not enough border, there was,
16 and it was from Volusia County, there was 1.6
17 percent of the whole north -- in that case it was a
18 western boundary, and it had only touched 1.6
19 percent.
20 In our case, it's the northern boundary that
21 touches, and it's 37 percent. You know, a huge
22 difference between 1.6 percent of an area versus
23 37 percent.
24 Reasonable compactness, this thing is almost a
25 square. So that one, we'll definitely get on that.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
39
1 They raise an issue about the map that was in
2 the newspaper, that it was slightly different than
3 the actual map. But if you look at the law on that,
4 it says that the map depicts the general area where
5 the land to be annexed is at in order to give the
6 public an idea where this is at. Because if you
7 tell them it's a parcel along 510, they get to know
8 where, you know, what it looks like. So it doesn't
9 have to be an exact signed -off, engineer survey. It
10 just has to be a general map of the area.
11 So we looked at these things. Dan and I talked
12 about these things to see, because that's the first
13 thing a lawyer does. They made all these things.
14 Do we have defenses for these or are they right? If
15 they're right, we'd have to tell you guys to stop
16 the bleeding. We'd have to tell you guys, hey, they
17 bring up some points we need to took at.
18 It is my opinion that this is defensible.
19 MR. DODD: Sir?
20 MR. ABBOTT: I agree with what Jim has said.
21 There are, certainly, I think six different
22 arguments. You can never promise that you're going
23 to win a challenge like this, but you have viable
24 responses to all of them.
25 The other thing I would mention and consistent
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
we
1 what Jim said before, even if you were to lose, what
2 the Court would do, they wouldn't be saying you
3 can't ever annex this property. They would say, do
4 it right next time. Other than the issue of whether
5 or not the annexed area is contiguous, in other
6 words, whether it's it dirty pool to have serial
7 annexations, all of the other issues that are raised
8 are certainly reputable.
9 So if this commission continues to want to do
10 the annexation, I would say, to a virtual certainty,
11 you will ultimately be allowed to do so, even if you
12 have a temporary setback.
13 MR. DODD: Now, let me say something else. I
14 thoroughly understand the issue related to the three
15 of you, because I understand that there's a lot of
16 people out there that expect you to come in here and
1'7 overturn this annexation. Now, I'm not sure whether
18 you personally feel that way or not. But I
19 understand what went on during the election. I
20 understand all the background information was
21 produced. I understand all the negative, nasty
22 stuff that was said. You guys didn't say it. It
23 was said by other people. I understand that.
24 However, and just so you know this, I will go
25 out of my way to assist us in making sure that we
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
41
1 correct those issues with people as we move forward.
2 We will do as many meetings as we need to do. We
3 will do as much community involvement as we need to
4 do. We will go into the negotiations with the
5 county.
6 Although, I have a hard time saying this
7 sometime. We will go in the negotiations with the
8 county, at a spirit of cooperation as much as we
9 can. It's going to be hard for me to do that, but I
10 will. At some point in time, when we have an
11 opportunity and the sunshine law doesn't get me,
12 I'll explain to you why it will be hard. Because
13 the county has not been a good partner.
14 MR. HILL: A terrible partner.
15 MR. DODD: But we will do that. I understand
16 that.
17 It's not the time for us, though, to let this
18 lawsuit put us in a pickle when the annexation is
19 not the issue. The issues are other things.
20 MS. PARRIS: I understand.
21 MR. DODD: All the people who complained about,
22 it's going ruin my way of life. Well, what's going
23 to happen if Graves Brothers breaks that up into
24 three 328 parcels and the county approves, which
25 they just proved to us they will, that they approved
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
42
1 another 600 houses per parcel? And we get no tax
2 revenue from it.
3 MS. PARRIS: I understand that too.
4 MR. DODD: We can't fix our streets. We can't
5 make our playgrounds better.
6 MS. PARRIS: I understand that too.
7 MR. DODD: We can't do anything from that. The
8 county has already put 3,000 houses on our border
9 with no commercial space.
10 So there's a lot of things that go along doing
11 this. I understand the issues that if you feel like
12 that you may be encumbered with. You have people
13 out there who will not expect this. I will work
14 with you. Jim will work with you had. He's not
15 smiling, but he will. We'll do everything we can to
16 assist in trying to get past this.
17 I don't like that public perception issue. I
18 don't like it when the public calls me and tells me
19 that I'm a scoundrel.
20 MS. PARRIS: I'm sure you don't. What's the
21 cost of postponing this again? I mean, so the
22 public can understand the contract, everything,
23 black and white.
24 MR. DODD: The way for us to do that is to get
25 past this court case so we're not under a gag order,
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
43
1 to be able to have some public meetings, to bring
2 people in and get off that stupid dais, which I
3 hate, get down on the floor so we're right
4 eye -to -eye with them and talk about things. That's
5 the way to do that. We're not going to be able to
6 do that, though, if we're now in a battle with
7 Graves over liability and if we're in a battle with
8 everybody else over everything else.
9 This case purely about that annexation. That's
10 all it's about. It's also about two organizations
11 that are very tightly tied to a county commission.
12 Those organizations are bringing the case. We just
13 have to be careful with that. I've said all I want
14 to say.
15 MR. MAUTI: As we look at this, this is all
16 about the annexation, whether it was done right or
17 whether it was done wrong. But we need to control
18 the growth. As you said, we can do it through PNZ.
19 But we're working with 10-year-old comp plan that's
20 out of date.
21 MR. DODD: That's being redone.
22 MR. MAUTI: Which is being redone.
23 MR. DODD: Yes.
24 MR. MAUTI: Graves Brothers needs the City of
25 Sebastian to sell that land. They really do.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 MR. DODD: No. They can sell to the county as
2 well.
3 MR. MAUTI: This is my opinion: I think they
4 need us in order to sell that land to the people
5 that are going to develop it for them, number one.
6 Number two, we have the opportunity to put a
lot of contract documents in this. When we look at
8 the windfall, we said we're going to have,
9 $7 million, whatever it was, well, that's one. But
10 let's look forward of how we protect the city. We
11 can have different type of construction documents
12 drawn into this annexation that says, okay, we're
13 going to have additional impact fees as we go down
14 the road.
15 MR. DODD: We don't have those fees, and we
16 can't create those. Every single impact fee that we
17 have those legal for the city is in there and being
18 assessed on this property, every single impact fee.
19 MR. STOKES: Right. Impact fees, and I don't
20 want to get too much into to it because we're kind
21 of straying, but impact fees are highly regulated by
22 statute. If we're going to adjust impact fees, we
23 have to do a study, because the impact fees have to
24 be rationally related to the what the impact is
25 going to be on services.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
45
1 MR. MAUTI: When we say that, we don't know
2 what the cost is going to be for fire, police,
3 emergency vehicles seven years down the road when
4 this is developed. We may need new schools. We may
5 need another police station or an outpost. All this
6 is money that we have to find to offset to.
MR. DODD: He's got land in there he's donating
8 for school. There was land in that agreement, was
9 there not, for a police station?
10 MR. HILL: Mr. Mauti, all of those issues are
11 being dealt with, and they will be being dealt with
12 through the process, through the growth management
13 process that we have. All of those will be dealt
14 with.
15 As Mr. Dodd had stated, in the annexation
16 agreement, and in the annexation document itself,
17 the cost of all of that will be incurred by the
18 landowner. So those are the important things that
19 we have to know. So again, we're talking about
20 control, controlling growth, and the city being able
21 to control that growth. So we don't have Bluewater
22 Bay, which is right at the corner of that little
23 curve of 510. That's what the county has provided
24 for us. They did another one that was directly next
25 to it. Then there is Liberty Square. That's all
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 the county that's doing it. So they are on a pair
2 with growth and development.
3 If you look at Southern Vero, if you look just
4 outside the city limits of Vero Beach down in the
5 Oslo section, it's gated community after gated
6 community after gated community. That's all in the
7 county, and the county did that to Vero Beach.
8 I'm not trying to convince you that the city
9 should be in control of that. It sounds to me like
10 you believe that to be the case. But it also seems
11 to me that the control needs to be through the
12 growth management side of it, not necessarily the
13 who is going to be the one making the decisions on
14 what goes onto that land.
is As it is right now, for the next two years, for
16 the next year, this council will be sitting in at
17 least for the next two years. There's three of you
18 that will be up there making those decisions going
19 forward. So the ultimate control is in your hands
20 on this property. Your hands, not the city
21 council's hands. So you are the city council. So
22 the fear that city council is going to do something
23 without telling the people, city council is going to
24 develop this land in a way that's not going to be
25 beneficial to the City of Sebastian, that fear
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
47
1 should be completely gone.
2 MS. PARRIS: It's gone.
3 MR. HILL: Because the fact of the matter is,
4 y'all are in control now.
5 MR. DODD: The PUD process is not approved by
6 PNZ. It's actually the city council. PNZ reviews
7 it. Because it's a PUD, the city council has to
8 actually approve all of that. It's not like a
9 standard site plan that has to go through that other
10 process.
11 The other side of that is you're a hundred
12 percent correct, Graves needs Sebastian for this
13 property for one reason: Commercial development.
14 The county is not going to allow commercial
15 development anywhere near Sebastian. They've proven
16 that to us. They have their own designs on where
17 they want commercial development to be. It is not
18 near Sebastian.
19 They won't let us expand - this goes off the
20 subject - but they won't let a developer expand any
21 Old Dixie Highway from an entrance to a subdivision
22 to 510 because he wants to put a little piece of
23 commercial there, and they don't want the
24 commercial. That's the only reason. They want no
25 commercial development to be done anywhere near
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 Sebastian. They want it done where they want it
2 done.
3 So he does need Sebastian for commercial
4 development. That's exactly the reason he came to
5 annexation for this. They're building the most
6 desirous commercial corridor in Northern Indian
7 River County with the 82nd Street expansion and 510
8 expansion.
9 MR. MAUTI: I saw that plan. Now I'm going to
10 make a comment on that plan. I'm seeing a lot of
11 applications, but I've never seen an application
12 approved where we did not have an engineer to
13 review, comment, and let us see their
14 recommendations on this.
15 MR. DODD: All the future land use map does is
16 change the comp plan. We will have an engineer do
17 all that at the point and time.
18 MR. MAUTI: At that point in time. What I'm
19 talking about is when this came forward, there
20 should have been an engineer or a consultant that
21 should have reviewed that to challenge some of the
22 things that Graves Brothers presented.
23 MR. GILLIAMS: Correct.
24 MR. DODD: But I don't know what they presented
25 that was challengeable. They presented a future
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
M
1 land use map that said commercial/general. And
2 within commercial/general is everything, and stuff
3 that was talked about in growth management was
4 everything from low-income housing apartments,
5 commercial strips, multi -use property with condos on
6 the second floor, commercials on the bottom floor.
7 There's not any true definition of what that
8 strip is going to look like, even though there are
9 county commissioners who want to tell us we're
10 creating a quarter -mile worth of hell, but there
11 isn't any definition of what that strip is going to
12 look like, except that it is in the commercial
13 general, except all of things that apply to
14 commercial general.
15 Now, when they come in for zoning is a time at
16 which we can say, well, let's put conditions on
17 this. Let's do this. Let's do that. That's the
18 time that do that, is at the zoning time.
19 All the future land use map is, is something
20 that goes into the comp plan so that the state sees
21 that we anticipate there to be commercial
22 development in that corridor. That's all that is.
23 MR. MAUTI: But I'm talking about the overall
24 application, the financial, will the checks and
25 balance on the financial that they provided?
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
50
1 MR. DODD: Our staff did that. I mean, I can
2 tell you, our staff compute the -- I'll let you
3 defend them, or I'll defend them. Our staff can
4 compute whether $17 million is an accurate number
5 for a COD --
6 MR. MAUTI: Your financial guy is one of the
7 best I've seen. I'm not going to take that away
8 from them. Your peanut cutter is --
9 MR. HILL: He's yours. Let's not forget that.
10 He's yours now.
11 MR. MAUTI: He's mine. Okay.
12 MR. HILL: That's right. Ours.
13 MR. MAUTI: Ours. All right. He is probably
14 one of the best employees you have. No, serious.
i5 I've looked at the reports. I've seen what he's
16 done, and he's good.
17 But I'm still of the old school, from when I
18 was doing it. You presented to me, we have an
19 engineer. He reviewed it. He gives us the
20 recommendations, and then we go forward. I just
21 felt that it was kind of biassed just presented by
22 Schulte and Associates.
23 MR. DODD: I think it was presented by our
24 staff, and I think our staff was comfortable. I
25 spent time talking to him about it. They were
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
51
1 comfortable. I was not uncomfortable with what was
2 there, personally. I was not uncomfortable when I
3 was there.
4 MR. MAUTI: It was uncomfortable that one of
5 the members --
6 MR. DODD: I would have been uncomfortable if
7 they were trying to come in and tell me that they
8 wanted zones and conditional use criteria and all
9 that stuff without something like that.
10 The process -- how do you say that? You can't
11 do everything before you do anything or you do
12 nothing. It's really that simple. If you try to do
13 everything before you do anything, you do nothing.
14 The process that we have to go through in something
15 like this is we have an individual who comes to us
16 that has 1100 acres. He wants to bring in the city
17 because he wants commercial on it. The city needs
18 commercial. Our comp plan is a problem, in trouble,
19 because we don't have commercial property. We don't
20 have enough commercial route on 512. I understand
21 the whole thing about there's empty storefronts and
22 all that kind of stuff.
23 We need the commercial space. It's
24 advantageous to the city to bring that property into
25 the city to meet that. There's nothing that he
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
52
1 proposed that is inconsistent with the kind of
2 growth that's happening all over this county. It's
3 being done on Oslo Road by the county. It's being
4 down everywhere else. Just wait till they take that
5 6600-acre Coglin property and put that overpass on
6 95 to build their commercial subdivision out there
7 and you'll see what's going to happen. So all I'm
8 telling you is it's not inconsistent with that.
9 So, I mean, I understand, from your
10 perspective, you would like to see more detail work
11 done on it.
12 MR. MAUTI: Much more.
13 MS. PARRIS: And we can do that.
14 MR. DODD: And that's something we can talk
15 about. When we start talking about procedures at
16 some point in time, we can start talking about that.
17 I have no issue with that. None whatsoever. We can
18 start talking about that kind of stuff.
19 Mr. Gilliams?
20 MR. GILLIAMS: So, I know what I ran on, and I
21 ran on making sure that we stop this annexation.
22 I'd like to read the response.
23 Does the city attorney -- Mr. Dan, do you have
24 the response with you?
25 MR. ABBOTT: I have a draft response.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
53
1 MR. DODD: No.
2 MR. ABBOTT: I'm not trying to be --
3 MR. GILLIAMS: When can you make it available
4 to us to review?
5 MR. DODD: He'll make it available when it's
6 finished.
7 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm talking. Why do you keep
8 interrupting?
9 MR. DODD: I keep interrupting because you're
10 trying to do something you don't have the authority
11 to do.
12 MR. GILLIAMS: I have the right to just ask him
13 a question.
14 MR. DODD: You do not have the authority.
15 MR. GILLIAMS: He represents this council.
16 MR. DODD: You don't have the authority,
17 Damien.
18 MS. PARRIS: That's part of the problem, was no
19 transparency. He wants to see it.
20 MR. GILLIAMS: Why can't you have the response
21 ready for us to review? I have a question.
22 MR. ABBOTT: The final response?
23 MR. GILLIAMS: Yes.
24 MS. PARRIS: And be reviewed.
25 MR. STOKES: Mr. Mayor, Mr. Abbott works for
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
54
1 me.
2 MR. DODD: Yes.
3 MR. STOKES: Under the charter, I'm responsible
4 for the legal affairs of the city. That's why when
5 we engaged him, if you see the agreement, I signed
6 it.
7 MR. DODD: Yes.
8 MR. STOKES: And that's what council did the
9 night that I told you I wanted to bring in outside
10 counsel. There was no vote on that of council,
11 because council did not hire him. Council just gave
12 me the green light to go ahead and spend the money
13 to bring somebody in. But under the charter of the
14 legal affairs belong to the city. So he responds to
15 me, and he is going to give me a copy of it. So if
16 there's any direction to --
17 MR. DODD: At the appropriate time, it will be
18 made available to council.
19 MR. GILLIAMS: I think if you won't let us look
20 at this response, you're hiding something. I don't
21 agree with Mr. Stokes, and I don't agree with the
22 Mayor. I think that this gentleman here has been
23 retained by the city council. He was instructed to
24 do that through the city attorney. We're asking to
25 slow this thing down. Let us take look at the
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
55
1 response.
2 I'm also asking that we direct the Mr. Abbott
3 for an extension of time to request to the courts
4 before you put your response in. The judge, I'm
5 sure, will be open-minded knowing that there's a new
6 council also, three new members that have been
7 seated. We have to have a chance -- excuse me?
8 MR. STOKES: We have to be careful with the
9 court reporter.
10 MR. GILLIAMS: Yeah, I understand.
11 MR. STOKES: She is taking everything down.
12 MR. GILLIAMS: Yeah, thank you.
13 So, Charles, we ran on stopping this annexation
14 and reviewing it and bringing it back for a proper
15 hearing, and I'm going to stick to my word. I'm
16 asking Mr. Abbott to petition the Court for an
17 extension of time to give us an opportunity to sit
18 down with you at another executive meeting. Take a
19 look at your response and see if exactly the
20 response that we, as a council, want to direct you
21 to do. And if it isn't, then there may be another
22 direction that we want to send you in to settle this
23 issue. I'm making that very clear. I want to get
24 that on the record.
25 MR. DODD: It's on the record. And would you
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
wt
1 like put on the agenda on our next --
2 MR. GILLIAMS: Yes. Absolutely.
3 MR. DODD: That's on the agenda on our
4 December 11 council meeting.
5 MR. GILLIAMS: Yeah. Absolutely.
6 MR. DODD: So that's going to be on our agenda
7 at the December 11 council meeting.
8 MR. MAUTI: We can do that.
9 MR. DODD: I'm sorry? You have to speak up
10 because she has to put down what you are saying.
11 MR. MAUTI: I believe we can do that extension
12 of time.
13 MS. PARRIS: For the courts.
14 MR. GILLIAMS: Yes. Absolutely.
15 MR. DODD: So that's on the agenda for our
16 December 11 council meeting, but you are to stay the
17 course.
18 MR. GILLIAMS: No, no. We're not staying the
19 course. I'm putting it on the agenda --
20 MR. DODD: For the December 11 council meeting.
21 MR. GILLIAMS: To discuss to redirect the --
22 MR. DODD: Until we have a vote on December the
23 11th, there is no change in course.
24 MR. GILLIAMS: What I'd like to do is, if we
25 have to order another emergency meeting, emergency
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
57
1 meeting for the council to meet --
2 MR. DODD: We'll convene in the open session
3 after this, and we'll talk about that.
4 MR. GILLIAMS: Well, here's the thing: What's
5 going to stop the attorney from pursuing filing that
6 response on Monday?
7 MR. DODD: Damien, what you're doing --
8 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm asking you that question.
9 Do you have the answer?
10 MR. DODD: I'm going to tell you right now --
11 MR. GILLIAMS: Do you have that answer? Do you
12 have that answer?
13 MR. DODD: What you're doing is you're creating
14 a big problem for this city, because you created a
i5 problem to get elected to city council. You created
16 the annexation problem yourself. You created the
17 fury around the annexation problem, and you did that
18 to get elected to city council. And you're going to
19 create the city, you're going to put the city in a
20 big problem.
21 We can fix this problem through negotiation
22 with the county. We can fix this problem by going
23 forward. But the minute that we stop this, we allow
24 this case to be ruled against the city, we're
25 creating an issue between ourselves and the property
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
I owner.
2 MR. GILLIAMS: I have not heard enough from
3 this attorney, because everybody keeps interrupting.
4 I can't get a straight answer, because everybody
5 keeps talking on his behalf. We've hired this
6 gentleman to give us advice. And I can't seem to
7 get advice from him.
8 MR. DODD: He just got through telling us. And
9 the court reporter can go back and repeat it. The
10 just got through telling us --
11 MR. GILLIAMS: If we can get a consensus to
12 hold off on the response, to petition the Court for
13 an extension of time to respond. Can I get a
14 consensus on that?
15 MR. DODD: No, you can't, because you're not
16 holding a vote.
17 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm not havinq a vote. I'm
18 asking for a consensus.
19 MR. DODD: You do not have the authority to ask
20 this council for anything. Remember that.
21 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm asking for a consensus.
22 MR. DODD: No. You do not have the authority
23 to do that.
24 MR. GILLIAMS: Then I'm going to ask for a
25 point of order.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
59
1 MR. DODD: And I'm ruling against you on the
2 port of order. Call for the vote.
3 MR. GILLIAMS: I'll call for a vote on the
4 consensus of this group on how to direct our
5 new -hired attorney to handle this situation. And he
6 seems to be dictating over there that he's going to
7 do his way. I'm asking for a point of order to take
8 a look at getting a consensus vote and directing the
9 new city attorney that's handling this case and give
10 him a direction.
11
Can
I get a yes vote, Charles?
12
MR.
DODD: Don't look at him, look at me.
13
You're addressing the Chair.
14
MR.
GILLIAMS: I have a right to talk too.
i5
MR.
DODD: You have a right to talk to me, the
16
Chair.
17
MR.
GILLIAMS: No. That's the public.
18
MR.
DODD: Look at me.
19
MR.
GILLIAMS: Hey, what do you have to lose?
20
MR.
DODD: Look at me, Damien.
21
MR.
GILLIAMS: Why don't you just let the vote
22
go through?
23
MR.
DODD: What you're trying to do is to take
24
over the council.
25
MR.
GILLIAMS: No, I'm not.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
.11
1 MR. DODD: You're not taking it over.
2 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm not.
3 MR. DODD: All right. So you've raised a point
4 of order that you would like to redirect the council
5 to basically do nothing.
6 MR. GILLIAMS: No. Let me repeat.
7 MR. DODD: Is that what you're saying?
8 MR. GILLIAMS: No. I want a point of order.
9 And I want to get a consensus on the council to
10 redirect Mr. Dan Abbott on how to handled this
11 lawsuit.
12 MR. HILL: We don't direct him. We direct the
13 city attorney.
14 MR. DODD: We direct the city attorney, not
15 Mr. Abbott.
16 MR. GILLIAMS: We can direct the city attorney.
17 He could direct him. I want to get a consensus
18 vote, and that's the point of order.
19 MR. DODD: Specifically state what you want to
20 vote on.
21 MR. GILLIAMS: A consensus on getting to
22 petition the Court for an extension of time so that
23 the response is not filed. That response was done
24 from the previous council with the direction of the
25 previous council.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
61
1 MR. DODD: I haven't seen a response. It
2 wasn't done by anybody. It was done by the
3 attorneys.
4 MR. GILLIAMS: Yeah, I understand so that.
5 MR. DODD: All right. Wait. That's your point
6 of order. I'm ruling against you. Now what do you
7 do?
8 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm asking for the vote.
9 MR. DODD: So you're asking the Chair to hold a
10 vote on that point of order; is that correct?
11 MR. GILLIAMS: No. I'm asking the council to
12 have a vote --
13 MR. DODD: Do you want to make this legal or
14 not? Are you asking the Chair to hold a vote on
15 that point of order ruling?
16 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm asking to get a consensus.
17 I didn't ask for a vote.
18 MR. DODD: What I want to do is I want to get
19 you to hold proper procedure, Mr. Gilliams. The
20 Chair has ruled against you on your point of order.
21 Are you asking the Chair to hold a vote to determine
22 whether the Chair's ruling is correct or not?
23 MR. GILLIAMS: There's a point of order.
24 MR. DODD: This is the proper procedure.
25 MR. GILLIAMS: If we had an attorney here
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
62
1 representing us, he would tell us the proper
2 procedure.
3 MS. PARRIS: He is. He's here.
4 MR. DODD: I'm going the exact, proper
5 procedure. So now, all I'm saying is, I ruled
6 against you on your point of order. Are you asking
7 the Chair to hold a vote to determine whether my
8 ruling is correct or incorrect?
9 MR. GILLIAMS: Correct. I'm asking the Chair
10 to hold a vote.
11 MR, DODD: So we're now voting as to whether my
12 ruling on point of order is correct or incorrect.
13 Mr. Hill?
14 MR. HILL: Yes.
15 MR. DODD: Ms. Parris?
16 MS. PARRIS: I'm confused. This is ridiculous.
17 I'm confused.
18 MR. GILLIAMS: You're not correct.
19 MR. HILL: Is he correctly running the meeting?
20 MR. DODD: Yes. All I'm saying is --
21 MS. PARRIS: I think you're correct of running
22 the meeting.
23 MR. DODD: Okay. Is the answer yes on that?
24 What is your answer?
25 MR. MAUTI: Yes.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
63
1 MR. DODD: They're saying that, yes, was
2 overruled? Or, yes, was --
3 MR. HILL: Yes, you were doing the right --
4 MR. DODD: Yes, I'm correct in doing that.
5 MR. HILL: Right.
6 MR. DODD: So the point of order stands.
7 MR. GILLIAMS: Fine. If they don't want to get
8 a consensus, then let the record reflect that Damien
9 Gilliams wanted to petition Mr. Abbott to go
10 ahead --
11 MR. DODD: Well, city attorney. Say, the city
12 attorney.
13 MR. GILLIAMS: The city attorney and Mr. Abbott
14 to petition the Court for an extension of time to
i5 allow us to take a look at that review, the response
-1 6 that he's putting in, and to also instruct him. I'd
17 like to see it totally slow down. And he's the
18 attorney. He's going to tell us how to do it.
19 But the direction is, I want to see a
20 rehearing. And I want the attorney to work in that
21 direction. So if these two don't want to do that,
22 obviously, I lose the vote.
23 MS. PARRIS: It's not that we vote against that
24 part.
25 MR. DODD: Just so you guys know this, you are
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
E
1 not saying we're not going to do this correctly.
2 MS. PARRIS: I know.
3 MR. GILLIAMS: It's going to be too late.
4 MS. PARRIS: It's not what they said.
5 MR. GILLIAMS: No, you're misunderstanding.
6 MR. DODD: He's going to threaten you with
7 this. You're not saying that.
8 MR. GILLIAMS: You're misunderstanding, okay?
9 MR. DODD: Okay. Now --
10 MR. GILLIAMS: And they won't let the attorney
11 give advice to tell you how we can get there. If
12 you would ask --
13 MR. DODD: Tell us we have a valid case.
14 MS. PARRIS: They approve of this extension so
15 that the people could review this.
16 MR. DODD: When I ask those two attorneys --
17 MR. STOKES: If I could just, and I know we're
18 getting a little -- I think our court reporter is
19 having trouble getting this all down.
20 MS. PARRIS: I'm sure.
21 MR. STOKES: You're talking so fast. So if we
22 could slow it down just a little bit.
23 MR. DODD: Let's slow it down a little bit.
24 They did say what their opinion was. I mean, they
25 said that they would not have -- they would have
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
65
1 come back to us if they didn't feel that we are
2 defensible in this. They would have come back and
3 said that we're not defensible in this.
4 All we're saying is that we're going to move
5 forward. This case, this one case, not the whole
6 process. This case is the thing that we're not
7 going to do. We're going to move forward on
8 defending ourself on this case. We have an
9 obligation to do that. We have a contract. We have
10 an obligation to defend ourselves on this.
11 MS. PARRIS: So you're dropping "judification"
12 as to Pelican Island --
13 MR. DODD: I'm sorry?
14 MS. PARRIS: You're dropping judification
15 against the Pelican Island Autobahn Society, right?
16 MR. DODD: Dropping what?
17 MS. PARRIS: Judification.
18 MR. DODD: No, we're not. They're coming after
19 us. All we're doing is defending ourselves against
20 their suit. That's all we're doing. We're
21 providing a brief to the Court that says what our
22 position is in response to their brief. That's all
23 we're doing. Then the Court is going to decide what
24 to do with it.
25 MR. STOKES: Again, it's only on annexation.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 MS.
PARRIS:
I know.
2 MR.
STOKES:
This does not touch land use at
3 all.
4 MS. PARRIS: That's Damien's case, the
5 annexation, we're not --
6 MR. GILLIAMS: We do not have to give --
7 MR. DODD: The whole point is, I asked this
8 earlier, do you want to overturn the annexation or
9 do you want to fix the problems that people said
10 that they had the annexation? I didn't hear people
11 say they didn't want us to annex. I heard people
12 say --
13 MS. PARRIS: The difference between the
14 annexation and the whole --
15 MR. DODD: I heard people say, we don't like
16 the way you're doing it.
17 MS. PARRIS: Let's start with the annexation
18 and make it really clear first.
19 MR. GILLIAMS: You can't fix it until you
20 rehear it.
21 MS. PARRIS: In that case, we need to postpone
22 until we understand it.
23 MR. DODD: You're not going to get a rehearing
24 out of this case unless the judge agrees. And if a
25 judge agrees that we broke one of those rules,
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
67
1 you're going to get a rehearing.
2 MR. GILLIAMS: When did you get a law --
3 MR. DODD: It doesn't matter what we do.
4 MR. GILLIAMS: When did you get a law degree?
5 We have an attorney to advise us.
6 MR. DODD: Damien, you've been talking law
7 things all night long. Would you please?
8 MR. GILLIAMS: No. We have a guy here to
9 advise us on what our options are, and I'm not
10 hearing from him.
11 MR. DODD: Okay. We've already heard from
12 them. Here's the issue here: There's nothing we
13 can do except lay down and roll over to lose this
14 case. If we lay and down roll over, Graves is going
i5 to come after us with every barrel he's got.
16 MR. GILLIAMS: I disagree.
17 MR. DODD: I'm telling you that simple.
18 MR. GILLIAMS: I disagree.
19 MR. DODD: He's going to come after us with
20 every barrel he's got.
21 MS. PARRIS: How do you know that?
22 MR. DODD: I know that.
23 MR, GILLIAMS: He's not an attorney.
24 MR. DODD: I would do it. You know he's going
25 to do that.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
W.
1 MR. GILLIAMS: I disagree.
2 MR. DODD: I know that. I mean, if the
3 annexation is not the issue, and I've heard you
4 guys, I've heard you say that, if annexation not the
5 issue, if what you're trying to do --
6 MS. PARRIS: Right.
7 MR. DODD: If what you're trying to do is to
8 fill campaign promises that you made, that you would
9 correct the issues that people had with that, then
10 let's do that. Let's do that. Let's fix those
11 campaign promises. Let's do what we have to do.
12 MR. GILLIAMS: Can I do that without a
13 rehearing?
14 MS. PARRIS: I still don't see a problem
i5 without him reviewing the contract first --
16 MR. MAUTI: Let me throw something out here.
17 MS. PARRIS: -- of the annexation. Because
18 I've never seen it.
19 MR. DODD: The annexation contract was at the
20 last meeting. It was passed out. It's in the
21 document. It was in the document that was passed
22 out before the meeting on the 28th of August.
23 MS. PARRIS: August. That's another problem.
24 MR. DODD: I mean, that's the contract. That's
25 the contract.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
.•
1 MS. PARRIS: Publication.
2 MR. DODD: It was in there.
3 MS. PARRIS: It was in. Okay.
4 MR. DODD: Yeah. I mean, if you haven't seen a
5 copy of it, we can get you it. All you got to do is
6 ask Jeanette for a copy of it.
7 MS. PARRIS: Okay.
8 MR. HILL: Charles is wanting to speak,
9 Mr. Dodd.
10 MR. DODD: I'm sorry, Charles.
11 MR. MAUTI: This is not about campaign
12 promises. Not with me. It's about doing this
13 right. We know this lawsuit is going to go forth.
14 We know that's going to happen. What is the harm in
15 asking the judge for an extension of time --
16 MS. PARRIS: What's the cost?
17 MR. MAUTI: -- for 30 days so that we satisfy
18 this end of the table, they get to review the
19 response?
20 MR. GILLIAMS: Thank you, Charles.
21 MR. DODD: Can we modify any of our actions
22 that we did in the past prior to the time this suit
23 is settled?
24 MR. STOKES: Well, see, no. That's the
25 problem.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
70
1 MR. DODD: That's the problem.
2 MR. STOKES: What our job is now, they've
3 challenged the process. We are responding back with
4 our position on what we did and why.
5 MR. MAUTI: I understand that.
6 MR. STOKES: Those facts aren't going -- our
response is all factual. Those facts aren't going
8 to change.
9 MR. MAUTI: I understand the facts aren't going
10 to change. What I'm saying is, can it be delayed
11 for 30 days, see what your response is, put it out
12 here for these guys to see, read it, put an end to
13 it? We then go forth. I don't think that 30 days
14 away is going to hurt.
15 MR. DODD: What do we gain by that?
16 MS. PARRIS: What do we lose?
17 MR. DODD: Why do we want to write the lawyer's
18 response?
19 MR. GILLIAMS: We're not asking that.
20 MR. DODD: Why do you want to write the
21 lawyer's response?
22 MR. GILLIAMS: We're not. There you go,
23 Mr. Mayor. That's wrong.
24 MR. DODD: I'm just asking you.
25 MR. GILLIAMS: We're not. That's not what we
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
71
1
said.
2
MR.
DODD: What did you say?
3
MR.
GILLIAMS: He'll help you out.
4
MR.
DODD: If you see this response --
5
MR.
GILLIAMS: Would you let the guy speak?
6
MR.
DODD: Okay. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
7
MR.
GILLIAMS: Go ahead, Charles.
8
MR.
MAUTI: All I'm looking for is if we can
9
ask for
an extension of time. We're not looking to
10
rewrite
anything. Let them me see what our response
11
is going
to be. We satisfy their needs.
12
MR.
GILLIAMS: Thank you.
13
MR.
MAUTI: The case is presented. We win, we
14
lose no
matter what. Just let's settle this enough
15
and give these guys the time to look at it. That's
16
all I'm saying.
17
MR.
HILL: Who's these guys?
18
MR.
DODD: I just don't understand. I don't
19
understand
why --
20
MR.
GILLIAMS: I want to look at it.
21
MR.
DODD: I'm confused as to why there is this
22
great desire to look at this before it goes to the
23
Court.
24
MR.
GILLIAMS: You don't have to answer that.
25
MR.
HILL: I just have a question for Charles,
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
72
1 if I may, sir.
2 MR. DODD: Yes, sir.
3 MR. HILL: Who are the guys that you're talking
4 about?
5 MR. MAUTI: Damien, Pam.
6 MR. GILLIAMS: That's it. That's it. Damien
7 and Pam. We're the ones that matter.
8 MR. HILL: Because here are the facts: Because
9 we wait 30 days and they see the response, the
10 response isn't going to change. It's not going to
11 change.
12 MR. GILLIAMS: Why is that?
13 MR. DODD: Because you're not going to write
14 it. You just said you didn't want to write it.
15 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm not asking to write it. I
16 think to have some direction.
17 MR. HILL: Mr. Charles, all I'm saying is, and
18 the facts of the matter also are --
19 MS. PARRIS: It's a done deal.
20 MR. HILL: That the city can't change anything
21 in the agreement going forward.
22 MR. MAUTI: I understand that.
23 MR. HILL: So the problem is, Charles -- and
24 you know very well that Damien wants this in his
25 hands, and he wants 30 more days because he wants to
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
73
1 cause more of a ruckus than he's already caused.
2 And the fact of the matter is, the fact of the
3 matter is --
4 MS. PARRIS: Prevent a ruckus.
5 MR. HILL: No, no. I understand what you're
6 saying. I really do. But everything that Mr. Dodd
7 said is actually factually true, that this process
8 and all of the concerns that have been brought for
9 this process is going to bear out through the
10 process, not through the annexation, which is
11 already done and is legal.
12 MR. MAUTI: I understand that.
13 MR. HILL: So, Charles, I'm telling you that
14 should we decide to stay this thing for 30 days,
15 what is your angle? That he reads it and that is
16 it? Because that's not going to happen.
17 MR. GILLIAMS: Why is that?
18 MS. PARRIS: And then everyone will see it and
19 everyone will be happy.
20 MR. HILL: Everyone can't see it, though. You
21 have to understand, this can't be a public document.
22 MR. MAUTI: That's not a public document.
23 MR. GILLIAMS: Charles --
24 MR. DODD: It can't be --
25 MR. GILLIAMS: The charter officers work for
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
74
1 us. They work for the council. We direct the city
2 attorney. The city attorney, we direct them. We
3 pay for the bill. End of story. So they got
4 something. Obviously, they're giving a sales pitch
5 because they don't want this thing to be looked at.
6 They want to push it through. This is what I don't
7 want.
8 MS. PARRIS: Nothing can be changed anyway.
9 MR. HILL: This is idiocy.
10 MR. DODD: This is your problem: Your problem
11 is -- and God love my wife as much as I do. She's
12 told me so many times, Damien is so smart, but he
13 can't stop. You can put that in the record, if
14 you'd like. I know it is.
15 Now, the point is, your problem is that you're
16 assuming that everybody has got an angle. We don't
17 have an angle. I don't have an angle.
18 MS. PARRIS: But the people think so too. We
19 want to clear that.
20 MR. DODD: I wish we'd done that better. So we
21 don't have an angle. So just so you know that,
22 there is no angle here.
23 Now, in the process of, if we slow this down by
24 30 days, we can't get to where I want to be. Where
25 I want to be is with county commission in the
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
75
1 164 process.
2 MS. PARRIS: What is the hurry?
3 MR. DODD: That's where we have to get.
4 MS. PARRIS: We have a 10-year plan?
5 MR. DODD: We can't ge to there with them.
6 Yeah, we have a -- I'm not going get involved in all
7 the planning process about this right now. We have
8 to get -- because the 164 process is the process
9 that is the true way in which we have to educate the
10 people. We have to work our way through this. We
11 have to do all that.
12 MS. PARRIS: I understand.
13 MR. DODD: And we can't get to there as long as
14 this case is still active.
15 MS. PARRIS: I know.
16 MR. DODD: There's nothing we can do. We can
17 hold this up for 60 days, 30 days, 90 days. The
18 facts don't change.
19 MS. PARRIS: Right.
20 MR. DODD: We can't change our process. We
21 can't change the contract. We can't do anything
22 until this court case is finalized.
23 MS. PARRIS: Is there any harm in slowing it
24 down?
25 MR. DODD: Why do we want to slow it down?
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
T
1 What do we gain? The question is, okay, if you'll
2 look at gains and losses, what do we gain if we slow
3 it down? If you want to look at the document, I
4 don't care if you look at the document.
5 MR. GILLIAMS: We want to direct our new -hired
6 attorney to slow this thing down so we can get a
7 good look at the response. We want to get a good
8 look at everything, and we want to rehear it. We
9 want to direct him to --
10 MR. DODD: Now we're at the gist of the issue.
11 MR. GILLIAMS: Yeah, we want a rehearing.
12 That's what we want to do. We want the people to
13 have public hearings, proper public hearings --
14 MR. DODD: Let me respond to you.
15 MR. GILLIAMS: -- and we want to direct him to
16 get us there.
17 MR. DODD: So what he wants to do --
18 MR. GILLIAMS: It's that simple.
19 MR. DODD: What he wants to do now --
20 MR. GILLIAMS: That's what I promised.
21 MR. DODD: -- not it slow down so we can see
22 the document --
23 MR. GILLIAMS: I would do everything.
24 MR. DODD: -- he wants to slow it down because
25 he wants to overturn the process.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
77
1 MR. GILLIAMS: I want to represent the people.
2 MR. DODD: That's what he wants to do.
3 MS. PARRIS: He's gonna to overturn the
4 annexation?
5 MR. GILLIAMS: No, I'm not saying that.
6 MR. DODD: He wants to overturn the process.
7 MR. GILLIAMS: You see, he's putting words in
8 my mouth.
9 MR. DODD: That's what he wants to do.
10 MR. GILLIAMS: I want the people to have a
11 chance to have a proper --
12 MR. STOKES: The court reporter can't hear
13 everyone.
14 MR. DODD: Did you not just say, so we rehear
15 the process?
16 MR. GILLIAMS: I want a proper hearing, due
17 process.
18 MR. DODD: You want a proper hearing. Okay.
19 MR. GILLIAMS: Correct. And I want to instruct
20 our attorney to do that.
21 MR. DODD: Now, does that mean --
22 MR. GILLIAMS: What does that mean? What does
23 that mean?
24 MS. PARRIS: That does not mean overturning --
25 MR. GILLIAMS: That's not overturning anything.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
I MR. HILL: The only way to get that is to
2 overturn this.
3 MR. GILLIAMS: We have an opportunity --
4 MR. DODD: You can't get to that.
5 MR. HILL: Listen with your ears, man.
6 MR. DODD: The only way to honor that, there's
7 two ways --
8 MR. STOKES: If everyone is going to talk over
9 there, I think we need to cancel, just end this
10 meeting. The court reporter cannot take down
11 everyone talking at once. If we're going to
12 continue, we need to just end the meeting.
13 MR. HILL: So let's end it.
14 MR. GILLIAMS: No. See, that's what he wants
15 to do.
16 MR. DODD: Let me address you for a second.
17 The only way we can rehear this is to undo the
18 original hearing. That's the only way we can rehear
19 it, which means that we start from scratch. I
20 understand that. Now, let's understand that.
21 That's not going to happen.
22 MS. PARRIS: Why?
23 MR. DODD: Because we got a contract. We got a
24 contract with Mr. Graves, with the Graves
25 Corporation.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
79
1 MR. GILLIAMS: You set it aside.
2 MR. DODD: You can't set aside. We have
3 contract liability with them. We have to protect
4 the base of that contract. You can't just decide
5 that you want to change everything that was done in
6 the past. And if there's no legal ramifications to
7 that change, correct?
8 MR. STOKES: Contracts are binding for a
9 reason.
10 MR. GILLIAMS: And a judge could set it aside
11 too.
12
MR.
DODD: So now, here's --
13
MR.
GILLIAMS: Ask Mr. Abbott right there. Ask
14
him that
question.
i5
MR.
DODD: I understand that.
16
MR.
GILLIAMS: Can a judge set that aside?
17
MR.
DODD: That's what you're trying to do.
18
MR.
GILLIAMS: I'd like to get a straight
19
answer,
but you won't let him answer.
20
MR.
DODD: All right. Can a jury set that
21
aside?
22
MR.
GILLIAMS: A judge.
23
MR.
ABBOTT: If there are grounds to rescind a
24
contract, the contract can be --
25
MR.
GILLIAMS: Thank you.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 MR. DODD: So what he wants to do, yet he won't
2 come out and say this directly, but what he wants to
3 do is he wants to manipulate the process of
4 responding to this lawsuit so that the judge orders
5 us to rehear.
6 MS. PARRIS: What's wrong with rehearing it,
7 though?
8 MR. DODD: That's what he wants to do.
9 MR. GILLIAMS: That's what I promised.
10 MR. DODD: Wait. You're not --
11 MR. GILLIAMS: That's what he promised. That's
12 what she promised.
13 MR. DODD: Wait. Wait. Wait. You're not
14
being --
is
MR.
GILLIAMS: Go ahead.
16
MR.
DODD: Right now we're going to go by
17
strict rules.
18
MR.
GILLIAMS: You're right. You're right.
19
MR.
DODD: That's what he wants to do.
20
MS.
PARRIS: Okay.
21
MR.
DODD: So that means that once we lose that
22
lawsuit,
we also still have a contract with Graves.
23
Is it not correct that Graves still -- we still have
24
a liability --
25
MR.
GILLIAMS: That's not true.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
M.
1
MR.
DODD: -- and Graves still has a standing
2
on that
contract?
3
MR.
STOKES: You could still have a contract,
4
yes.
s
MR.
DODD: So we still have a contract with
6
Graves.
We can't set aside that contract with
7
Graves.
We can't do it.
8
MS.
PARRIS: Okay.
9
MR.
DODD: All right. And so we're still stuck
to
with that liability. So here's one option. The one
11
that Damien
wants to follow is that we manipulate
12
this lawsuit
process such that the judge rules
13
against
the city. The way he will do that --
14
MR.
GILLIAMS: I didn't say that.
1s
MR.
DODD: -- is to manipulate the case.
16
MR.
GILLIAMS: I did not say that, rule against
17
the city.
18
MR.
DODD: I know.
19
MR.
GILLIAMS: I did not say that. Don't put
20
words in my mouth.
21
MR.
DODD: I'm not recognizing you yet.
22
MR.
GILLIAMS: I want to rehear it. I want
23
relief.
24
MR.
DODD: I'm not recognizing you yet.
25
MR.
GILLIAMS: I want relief.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 MR. DODD: Now, so, there is another option,
2 however. The other option is, and this is what I've
3 been saying all evening, is that we recognize the
4 issues that caused us to have the problem that we
5 have, and we move forward with the intent to rectify
6 those issues as we move forward. We have public
7 sessions. We get feedback from the community. We
8 do that before we enter into the 164 process with
9 the county. So we let the public feedback drive
10 that 164 process.
11 Then we enter into the 164 process with the
12 county. We do the negotiations that we have to do.
13 We use the input from the community to drive the
14 zoning requirements to drive the PUD requirements to
15 drive those things that have to take place.
16 MS. PARRIS: And we approve of all of that, but
17 that's post -annexation.
18 MR. DODD: Well, that's post -annexation. But
19 what I'm telling you is that the annexation has
20 happened. We cannot absolve ourselves of a
21 liability that we created. Heaven forbid that I'm
22 the devil in disguise because I voted for the
23 annexation. But we cannot absolve ourselves of a
24 liability. I put that in there, I'm the devil in
25 disguise. We cannot absolve ourselves of that
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
ON
1 liability.
2 We have a contract. We have a contract
3 because - I want to make this extremity clear - we
4 have a contract because it was demanded that we have
5 an annexation agreement in our document by the
6 county and by the people who came to the city and
7 objected to the annexation, like Mr. Gilliams. They
8 demanded that we have an annexation agreement. Do
9 you remember that?
10 MS. PARRIS: Yes.
11 MR. DODD: That created the contract. We are
12 now living with the results of that demand. We have
13 a contract now.
14 MR. GILLIAMS: He's selling you.
15 MR. DODD: We do have a contract. We can't get
16 around it. All I'm saying -- I sympathize. I do.
17 Hindsight is a great rule. But if we sabotage this
18 court case --
19 MR. GILLIAMS: No, you're not doing that.
20 MR. DODD: If we sabotage this court case in
21 order to get the judge to rule that we rehear it,
22 because I'm telling you, on basis alone on their
23 case, the judge is got going to rule that way. I
24 don't want to guarantee anything. I'm not a lawyer.
25 But the judge is probably not going to rule that
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 way. If we do that, then we have to deal with a
2 liability. That's it.
3 MR. MAUTI: So what happens if the judge rules
4 in favor of Autobahn Society?
5 MR. DODD: Then the judge will tell us what
6 action we have to take. And a judge will tell us
7 what action we have to take. We're still in
8 liability, because we still have the contract with
9 Graves Brothers.
10 MR. GILLIAMS: I want to make it easy for
11 Autobahn Society to get their hearing, just like we
12 promised them. This is public record. This will be
13 put out.
14 MR. HILL: This is bullying right here.
15 MR. GILLIAMS: This will be put out.
16 MR. DODD: Damien, no threats. Don't threaten
17 council ever.
18 MR. GILLIAMS: That's a fact. That's a public
19 record.
20 MR. DODD: Don't threaten council members.
21 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm not. I'm educating them.
22 MR. DODD: You're just trying to --
23 MR. GILLIAMS: Knock it off. Come on. Knock
24 it off.
25 MR. DODD: You're trying to coerce them into a
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
I vote.
2 MR. MAUTI: I'm trying to have hands across the
3 table here, get something organized so we can all
4 understand what's going on. So if the Court rules
5 in favor of the Autobahn Society, we go back to
6 square one.
7 MR. GILLIAMS: Correct.
8 MR. DODD: If the Court rules in favor of the
9 Autobahn Society, the first step is we have to
10 settle our legal case with the Graves Brothers. And
11 then if the Graves Brothers, at the conclusion of
12 that, decide they want to continue with a
13 voluntarily annexation, then we move forward.
14 MS. PARRIS: Why wouldn't they?
15 MR. GILLIAMS: You're instructing the city
16 attorney to fight this. That's not what we're about
17 here. We're supposed to --
18 MR. HILL: This is not acceptable. That is not
19 acceptable to sit there and direct another council
20 member.
21 MR. DODD: You can't do that.
22 MR. GILLIAMS: I could debate this issue all
23 daylong.
24 MR. DODD: You aren't debating. You were
25 directing him.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
Of
1 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm just telling him that,
2 hey --
3 MR. HILL: You were telling him what to do,
4 man.
5 MR. GILLIAMS: No, I'm not telling him what to
6 do. I'm just telling him that what you guys are
7 doing --
8 MR. DODD: All right.
9 MR. GILLIAMS: You're telling him to fight
10 this. That's what you're telling him.
11 Go ahead, Charles.
12 MR. MAUTI: Go ahead.
13 MR. DODD: What do you want to do? Just tell
14 me.
15 I know what you want to do. I don't even have
16 to ask you anymore.
17 MR. GILLIAMS: Thank you.
18 MR. DODD: Okay. What do you want to do?
19 MR. MAUTI: I'm looking at this. I'm looking
20 at the ups and downs. If they win, we go back to
21 square one. There's a possibility we might win. I
22 don't see the harm, and it's only my opinion, I
23 don't see a harm in asking for a continuance of 30
24 days. Go over this thing, see what our options are,
25 and then just go forth from there.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 MR. DODD: Okay. Would you have a one-on-one
2 conversation with the attorney about what you want
3 to go over, and let the attorney and you have a
4 conversation about that.
5 Is that appropriate?
6 MR. STOKES: Yeah. One-on-one at any time.
7 MR. DODD: I'm talking about now or something.
8 What I'd like to know is, what is it that you want
9 to go over? Because if we take that step,
10 specifically, what is our next action? We can't
11 just go over everything. So what is our next
12 option?
13 MR. STOKES: Well, we got to be careful,
14 because in the rules of court, you can't ask for a
15 continuance for the purpose of delay. You would
16 need to have a good cause for --
17 MR. GILLIAMS: We're new. Three new people.
18 That's a good cause.
19 MR. STOKES: But just to understand that if we
20 go in there and say, well, we just want to delay
21 this, that's not the way the court works.
22 MR. GILLIAMS: No. No.
23 MR. DODD: I'd just like to know, from your
24 perspective, what do you want to accomplish during
25 the delay period? What do you want the outcome of
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
.:
1 that to be?
2 MS. PARRIS: I want understanding.
3 MR. MAUTI: I want the outcome to be, let these
4 guys see what our defense is. Let them see it. If
5 they like it, fine. If they don't like it, fine.
6 We direct the counsel to go in Direction A or
7 Direction B.
8 MR. STOKES: Just a point there --
9 MR. GILLIAMS: Good job, Charles.
10 MR. STOKES: I mean, there was council action.
11 And the city attorney's job is to defend council
12 action. So A is defending council action. What
13 exactly is B? I'm not understanding.
14 MR. GILLIAMS: That council is gone. You're
15 defending somebody who's not here.
16 MR. DODD: Damien, would you --
17 MR. STOKES: The city council exist, okay? And
18 the actions that the city council takes, it doesn't
19 matter if an ordinance was passed in 1987, it's
20 still valid.
21 MR. MAUTI: It's valid. I understand that.
22 MR. STOKES: So the properly -seated council at
23 the time took council action that was challenged.
24 My job is to defend council action. So, and that is
25 why I'm saying, that in 25 years of practicing law
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
IN
1 for local government, I've never been asked to look
2 at a pleading before it's filed. Because really the
3 only one option -- first of all, they're always
4 legal arguments, which unless there's other
5 attorneys on council that might want to chime in,
6 which is beyond their scope anyway. But it's up to
7 the attorney to make the legal arguments. And the
8 only option is to make arguments to defend council
9 action. So that's what I'm not --
10 MR. MAUTI: So you're saying --
11 MR. STOKES: I just want to make sure I know
12 what I'm being directed to do.
13 MR. MAUTI: So you're just saying, all you can
14 do is defend the action of the previous council?
15 MR. GILLIAMS: No.
16 MR. HILL: Yes.
17 MS. PARRIS: That's what he was saying.
18 MR. GILLIAMS: No.
19 MR. DODD: Let him answer, not Damien.
20 You answer.
21 MR. STOKES: Yes.
22 MS. PARRIS: That decision.
23 MR. STOKES: The job is to defend what took
24 place on August 28th. Actually, the job is to --
25 MS. PARRIS: That's a problem.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
M
1 MR. STOKES: -- represent to the Court the
2 facts of what took place on August 28.
3 MR. DODD: He's not defending.
4 MR. STOKES: Then let the Court decide whether
5 it was done properly or not. The facts are just the
6 facts.
7 MR. DODD: Damien, sit back. Sit back. Let's
8 have some order here. Sit back. Let these two
9 talk.
10 MR. STOKES: This response will spell out that,
11 yes, the time was cut down to three minutes. But it
12 will also spell out that the rules allow for an
13 adjustment of the meeting procedure; what the
14 justification was, which it was put on the record
15 that the time was shortened because of the crowd. I
16 mean, just spell out all the facts. Then the Court
17 decides.
18 And the judge is the one that's going to make
19 the call here. But remember, only on the
20 annexation. Land use and how that develops out
21 there, that falls to you guys. Because none of
22 those things have been final. Even the future land
23 use map hasn't gone for a second reading yet.
24 That's all you. This is just whether that
25 1100 acres are going to in the city limits or out of
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
91
1 city limits.
2 MR. DODD: Have you heard what you wanted to
3 hear with your answer?
4 MR. MAUTI: I heard we have to defend what was
5 done, period.
6 MR. DODD: So what would you feel like, what is
7 it that you would like to accomplish with the pause?
8 MR. MAUTI: I'd really like to know what
9 this -- he doesn't have it. I'd really like to know
10 what the defense is, what he's presented. That's
11 all I'm asking. What is being presented as our
12 defense.
13 MR. GILLIAMS: Thank you.
14 MR. DODD: I guess the question is, why are we
15 not assuming that they're going to adequately do a
16 defense on this?
17 MR. GILLIAMS: You made a decision. Why are
18 you beating the guy down?
19 MR. DODD: I'm not beating him down. I'm just
20 asking a question.
21 MR. MAUTI: Damien.
22 Say your question again.
23 MR. DODD: Well, I'm just wondering. I mean,
24 if you want to see what the defense is, do you want
25 to evaluate the legalities of what they're writing?
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
WN
I I just --
2 MR. MAUTI: No. I believe that -- they're
3 hired to do an adequate job. I'd just like to see
4 that documentation for my own satisfaction.
5 MS. PARRIS: I agree.
6 MR. GILLIAMS: I agree.
7 MS. PARRIS: That's all.
8 MR. DODD: Question to you guys: At what point
9 in time is that finalized?
10 MR. ABBOTT: It's currently due to be filed on
11 Monday.
12 MR. DODD: So on Monday you'll have a final
13 copy that you'll send to Mr. Stokes?
14 MR. ABBOTT: Sure. And Mr. Stokes will see
15 drafts of the document.
16 MR. DODD: I'm saying, so you'll have a final
17 copy on Monday?
18 MR. ABBOTT: Correct.
19 MR. DODD: Okay. So can we then disseminate
20 that final copy?
21 MR. STOKES: My normal procedure, because it's
22 legal work and because it's protected until it's
23 filed, my procedure is always, and has been for 25
24 years, when it's filed, I get a file stamped copy
25 back, and that goes out to council and the mayor.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
93
1 MR. MAUTI: The timeframe is too short.
2 MR. DODD: Wait a minute. If you see that at
3 that point in time, does that satisfy what you're
4 looking for?
5 MR. MAUTI: No.
6 MR. DODD: So you want to see it prior to the
7 court file?
8 MS. PARRIS: Read it by Monday night?
9 MR. MAUTI: I want to see it prior to.
10 MR. DODD: What do you want to accomplish by
11 doing that? I'm just trying to understand what you
12 want to accomplish.
13 MR. MAUTI: I want to see what the defense is
14 saying, all our defenses against Autobahn Society.
15 That's all I want to know, what our defense is,
16 period.
17 MS. PARRIS: In writing.
18 MR. MAUTI: What the legal steps are that we're
19 taking that they're defending us on. I want to know
20 what that brief says.
21 MR. HILL: Mr. Mayor, if I could? This city
22 attorney and I just want this on record that I
23 understand that the city attorney has directed that
24 you cannot petition the Court for a stay simply to
25 pause. That's the direction that our legal attorney
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
Icy'
I gave us on this, that we can't just direct the Court
2 or ask the Court to direct that we wait 30 days
3 based on us wanting to pause this. So I just want
4 that on the record that I understand that.
5 MS. PARRIS: What would be a reason,
6 Mr. Stokes?
V MR. DODD: I'm really, I'm trying to
8 understand. I know what you want to do, Damien.
9 I'm trying to understand what the two of you
10 would like to accomplish with this.
11 MS. PARRIS: We want to understand, in detail
12 completely, what's on the table.
13 MR. DODD: I have a hard time asking why.
14 MR. GILLIAMS: Mr. Abbott said it's doable.
15 They do it all the time. It's doable. You can
16 petition the Court with a legitimate reason for an
17 extension of time.
18 MR. DODD: I'm not talking about the pause.
19 MR. GILLIAMS: Can Mr. Abbott get on here? He
20 represents us. Can he get on the record?
21 MR. STOKES: He can, and I can too.
22 MR. GILLIAMS: Okay, yeah. So good.
23 MR. DODD: The city attorney will answer.
24 MR. STOKES: For a pause, you can --
25 MR. GILLIAMS: You're on the way out, aren't
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
95
1 you? You're leaving the city?
2 MR. STOKES: I'll leave tonight if you want to
3 fire --
4 MR. GILLIAMS: No, I didn't say that. I said,
5 you're on your way out, right? I'd like to hear
6 what the city --
MR. MAUTI: Can I excuse myself for a minute?
8 MR. GILLIAMS: -- what Mr. Abbott has to say.
9 MR. DODD: We're in recess.
10 (A short recess was taken.)
11 MR. DODD: We came back from recess at 6:40. I
12 believe Mr. Gilliams wanted the floor.
13 MR. GILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Mayor. It is
14 important that we're new and we have an opportunity
15 to talk to our new -hired attorney, who is
16 representing us on this case, to be able to ask him
17 direct questions, get him on the record as to what
18 our options, what can we do. I laid out a few
19 options. I don't see the big hurry with this.
20 I don't want to have Charles or Pam or Jim or
21 you. If you have a question, we hired this
22 gentleman to represent us. Obviously, we're
23 defending a lawsuit.
24 I read the complaint. I see a lot of issues in
25 the complaint, that if we get some straight answers
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 directly from the attorney that we retained to
2 specialize in keeping us out of trouble, I think we
3 can walk a tight rope where we can petition the
4 courts, like I said, to delay this response. It's
5 done all the time. He can give the excuse to the
6 judge. You've got three new council members. It's
7 not unheard of, when you have three new people
8 coming in, to take a look at this response.
9 I know I do. I want to redirect them. I don't
10 want the old city, and I don't want the old city
11 council directing our new attorney that's trying to
12 get us out of a situation that we shouldn't have
13 been in to begin with. Because if the annexation
14 procedures were followed properly and it was
15 ironclad, the other side, the Autobahn Society
16 wouldn't be making these arguments. And I was at
17 those hearings and I witnessed it. There was not
18 due process.
19 I think, and if they asked the attorney,
20 Mr. Dan Abbot, direct questions, without anybody
21 interrupting them, they can be able to make an
22 educated decision, and he can give them a straight,
23 honest answer. We're not needing to have an
24 interpreter, Mr. Stokes, to tell us what we're
25 entitled to.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
97
1 We, the council, are paying the bill. We have
2 a right, with three new votes, to direct Mr. Abbott
3 in what direction we want to go as. End of story.
4 MS. PARRIS: I have a question. I don't know
5 what attorney to address at this point. What ground
6 would the Court accept this postponing of this, if
7 it's not on --
8 MR. ABBOTT: Any good cause, and I could not
9 promise you whether the Court will grant or deny the
10 motion. So you would file a motion for an extension
11 of time to file the brief. You would give your
12 reasons for that. As the city attorney indicated,
13 it is not a valid reason to try to get a continuance
14 for the very purpose of delay.
i5 MS. PARRIS: I understand that.
16 MR. ABBOTT: But any other valid --
17 MS. PARRIS: What grounds would there be --
18 MR. ABBOTT: Any other valid purpose. Again, I
19 can't promise you whether the judge would grant or
20 deny that motion.
21 MS. PARRIS: And if denied it, what would
22 happen?
23 MR. ABBOTT: Well, you would, presumably, file
24 a timely response. If the judge didn't give you an
25 extension, you would respond by the current
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1 deadline. If you didn't respond by the deadline,
2 you may lose by default.
3 MS. PARRIS: Okay. Basically, I'm
4 comfortable -- like you said, what would it profit
5 by making the delay? What do we have to lose by
6 delaying 30 days? I don't see that --
7 MR. DODD: I don't just don't know what we want
8 to accomplish.
9 MS. PARRIS: Well, I think a satisfaction.
10 Council members aren't satisfied of people that are
11 going to ask me questions. And then if I leave this
12 meeting tomorrow --
13 MR. HILL: You can't talk about it.
14 MR. MAUTI: Nothing you can talk about.
15 MS. PARRIS: Well, the public is going to say,
16 what --
17 MR. GILLIAMS: Was that ordered by a judge, the
18 gag, or was that ordered by the city attorney?
19 MR. DODD: No, by the judge.
20 MR. ABBOTT: Well, for this section, the answer
21 is the statute that we're proceeding under. Those
22 are the conditions, that we're meeting out sunshine
23 hours. We need to keep this meeting confidential.
24 MR. GILLIAMS: Keep this meeting confidential.
25 MS. PARRIS: And 32963 is going to call me
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
99
1 tomorrow and say, ask my opinions on things.
2 MR. MAUTI: Nothing you can say.
3 MS. PARRIS: Then that's what the next meeting
4 will be.
5 MR. DODD: And the question is, if you see the
6 brief that he's going to file, how will that change
7 that? Because until he files it, you can't talk
8 about it.
9 MS. PARRIS: But I can look at it. I can
10 review it, right?
11 MR. DODD: But you can't talk about it.
12 MS. PARRIS: I can understand it more
13 thoroughly. I think that's the problem. We're just
14 not satisfied.
15 MR. DODD: You're not understanding.
16 MS. PARRIS: There might be something I'm
17 missing, yeah.
18 MR. DODD: So you're not understanding how we
19 can defend the actions that were laid out in their
20 suit? Is that what you're not understanding?
21 MS. PARRIS: No. I'm not understanding
22 exactly --
23 MR. DODD: That's what I'm trying to understand
24 is, what -- I understand what Damien wants. He
25 wants the whole thing go back and start all over
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
100
1
again. I understand that.
2
MS. PARRIS: Yeah. The annexation is simple
3
compared to the rest of it. I get all that. We'll
4
be happy that the rest of it is going to be really
5
great. Everybody is going to have their say in it.
6
It's going to be wonderful. But I don't think I'm
7
real clear on exactly what this annexation is.
8
MR. DODD: Exactly what? I didn't hear the
9
last words you said.
10
MS. PARRIS: What this annexation entails in
11
the contract, in everything. And that's what we're
12
asking to review, right?
13
MR. DODD: That's in their response to this
14
suit, correct?
15
MR. ABBOTT: Councilmen, there's no great
16
mystery for what's in the response. I can tell you
17
the particulars of the draft response, in terms of
18
all of the grounds that petitioner has. But the
19
short answer is, I'm defending the commisssion's
20
action until I'm told differently.
21
So what is the brief going to say? It's going
22
to say as to each of these six grounds that the
23
petitioner is saying, Judge, you should undo the
24
annexation for these six reasons, the response
25
brief. Until I'm told differently, it's going to
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
101
1 say, Judge, we don't think you should. Those
2 grounds do not justify overturning the annexation.
3 There's no mystery in that response. That's when an
4 attorney defending a commission's action would
5 always have in their brief.
6 If there are particular allegations in here,
V and you want me to tell you generally what the
8 response is, I'd be happy do it here. There aren't
9 that many claims and there aren't that many
10 responses.
11 MR. DODD: The annexation itself, the document
12 that we have with Graves Brothers, for example,
13 that's not in his response. That's not subject to
14 this suit.
15 What's subject to this suit is the procedures
16 that we followed on that particular meeting date.
17 MS. PARRIS: Oh, okay.
18 MR. DODD: That's all that's subject to this
19 suit. So this suit says that we cut the time down
20 to three minutes. That meant only 90 seconds on one
21 thing. He's going to respond something pertaining
22 to how this city had the right to do that based on
23 these procedures. So that's the way it's going to
24 be done. Nothing about annexation. That's in the
25 document that I'm surprised that they haven't given
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
102
1 you a copy of that.
2 I'll mention something to Jeanette, or you
3 should mention something to her. I'll just ask her
4 to make sure everybody gets a copy of that document.
5 That's in that document. That's where the
6 annexation agreement, the process by which we go is
7 in there. And so that's where you'll see all of
8 that information, is in that.
9 MS. PARRIS: Okay.
10 MR. GILLIAMS: So, Mr. Abbott, if you did a
11 motion for consent for a relief, would the city lose
12 anything? Would we be giving anything up for a
13 motion for relief?
14 MR. ABBOTT: I'm sorry, a motion for extension
15 of time?
16 MR. GILLIAMS: No. That's not what I said. Do
17 the motion for extension of time, but maybe later on
18 do a motion for consent for relief. Do we lose
19 anything as city?
20 MR. ABBOTT: I'm not sure what that motion is?
21 I'm sorry, a motion for consent for relief, I'm not
22 familiar with what --
23 MR. GILLIAMS: You're not familiar with that
24 term?
25 MR. ABBOTT: No, sir.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
103
1 MR. GILLIAMS: Consent for relief from the
2 judge?
3 MR. ABBOTT: No, sir. I don't mean to be
4 dense. What are you hoping to accomplish?
5 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm asking for the courts to
6 issue relief where we don't lose anything.
7 MR. DODD: I don't have the books.
8 MR. ABBOTT: So, I'm sorry. If you're asking
9 me to try to get an extension of time --
10 MR. GILLIAMS: Yes.
11 MR. ABBOTT: -- before I show cause --
12 MR. GILLIAMS: Right.
13 MR. ABBOTT: -- I can do that. The other
14 relief that we will be asking the Court for is when
15 we file the brief, again, assuming I don't get a
16 different direction from the council, the relief
17 would be, we will ask for the petition to be denied
18 and accept the annexation as being that.
19 MR. GILLIAMS: You can also file an amended
20 petition or get the other side to file an amended
21 petition to set the annexation agreement to the
22 side, can you not?
23 MR. ABBOTT: Could I get the other side to file
24 an amended brief to --
25 MR. GILLIAMS: Amended petition --
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
104
1 MR. ABBOTT: Yes, sir.
2 MR. GILLIAMS: -- to set the annexation
3 agreement aside. You could set that agreement to
4 the side.
5 MR. DODD: Which lawyer have you been talking
6 to?
7 MR. GILLIAMS: I've done one of these 30 years
8 ago. So, please.
9 So I'm asking, can you get that annexation
10 agreement set aside?
11 MR. ABBOTT: Well, the straight answer to your
12 question is, could the Autobahn Society ask the
13 judge to invalidate the contract that the city has
14 with the property owner? I suspect the answer to
15 that is no. I don't know what standing you would
16 have to have that relief.
17 MR. GILLIAMS: Can you do that?
18 MR. ABBOTT: Not in this proceeding, no, sir.
19 I would think that you could file an original action
20 to try to rescind a contract, if you had grounds.
21 MR. GILLIAMS: Can you ask the Court for a
22 rehearing for the city?
23 MR. ABBOTT: No, sir. Rehearings, asking the
24 Court for a rehearing is after the Court has made a
25 ruling. You're asking, should we ask the Court that
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
101W
1 the city should be given an opportunity to
2 reconsider the annexation?
3 MR. GILLIAMS: Yeah. We're going to ask the
4 Court for a rehearing.
5 MR. ABBOTT: For you to rehear the second
6 reading on the annexation?
7 MR. GILLIAMS: Yeah. So we can give the people
8 the opportunity to speak.
9 MR. ABBOTT: I think not. The ordinance is
10 final. Procedurally, and I think I said this
11 before, if it were the will of the commission, if a
12 majority of you no longer wanted to do the
13 annexation, probably the way you would procedurally
14 go about that is to, in your responsive paper, do
15 something called confessing error. In other words,
16 find one of these grounds and say, Judge, in
17 fairness, we think they're right. So lose the case
18 on purpose, hope to persuade the judge that we
19 should lose. Then the judge would invalidate the
20 annexation.
21 As I said before, that would appear to me to be
22 a breach of the contract with the property owner.
23 And they would have grounds to sue you for a breach
24 of contract.
25 MR. GILLIAMS: And you wouldn't be able to set
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
106
1 that aside?
2 MR. ABBOTT: I haven't heard any grounds, no,
3 sir, generally speaking.
4 MR. GILLIAMS: It'd be your job to find grounds
5 to set it aside, would it not?
6 MR. ABBOTT: If I were retained --
7 MR. GILLIAMS: Instructed.
8 MR. ABBOTT: -- to try to invalidate a
9 contract, I would try.
10 MR. GILLIAMS: Yeah. Okay.
11 MR. ABBOTT: No obvious reasons jump out to me.
12 Generally, people are allowed to enter into
13 contracts, and they're generally bound by those
14 contracts. And just changing your mind is not a
15 reason to get out of the contract.
16 If there a were a legal basis, if that's the
17 direction the commission went, you would direct your
18 city attorney. He may or may retain me to try to
19 identify grounds to defend the breach of contract
20 action that the property owner might find.
21 MR. GILLIAMS: So assuming that we break the
22 agreement with the Graves Brothers, the annexation
23 agreement, what's the worst case scenario to the
24 city?
25 MR. ABBOTT: Well, they might sue you for
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
107
1 breach of contract.
2 MR. GILLIAMS: What's the worst for that?
3 MR. ABBOTT: You might lose on liability. If
4 you lose on liability, then you would address the
5 issue of damages. What might the property owner
6 contend - I could only be speculating here - they
7 might contend something like, under the city
8 annexation, they would have hoped to build a very
9 profitable development that is not allowed under the
10 county's regulations, and then the damages are those
11 lost profits.
12 MR. GILLIAMS: There is no damages yet, is
13 there? The only thing they did was submit an
14 application. I don't see what the damages could
15 possibly be.
16 MR. ABBOTT: Well, the damages theory would be,
17 as I articulated, your lost profits under a
18 appropriate circumstances are recognized damages.
19 In other words, if my contracting partner would have
20 complied with the contract, I would have made money,
21 is a recognized damage theory.
22 MR. DODD: We're not getting anywhere. This is
23 on the agenda for the December 11th - I'm forgetting
24 the dates now - council meeting, at which time we
25 can have our debate. And then we can have a formal
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
M
1 vote based on a formal motion. As it stands right
2 now --
3 MR. GILLIAMS: The consensus is to partition
4 the delay.
5 MR. DODD: No. There's no consensus right now.
6 MR. GILLIAMS: Why isn't there a consensus? I
7 heard a consensus from him and her.
8 MR. DODD: Damien, one of these days you're
9 going to have to understand that you don't --
10 MR. GILLIAMS: Then, basically, you're not
11 saying we can petition the Court.
12 MR. DODD: Damian, stop.
13 MR. GILLIAMS: You're saying we cannot --
14 MR. DODD: Let me state procedurals. We're in
15 a formal meeting of judicial body, not judicial but
16 a legal body. Don't point to him. Point to me.
17 I'm the Chair. You don't run the meeting. I just
18 want to make sure you understand that. You don't
19 run the meeting.
20 MR. GILLIAMS: I asked the attorney. You said
21 earlier that we could petition for an extension of
22 time. And I'm asking for that direction and a
23 consensus.
24 MR. DODD: We can't make a motion right now.
25 You'll be able to make that motion at a later date.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
109
1 You'll be able to make that motion when it comes up
2 before the council. Because we can't make a formal
3 decision --
4 MR. GILLIAMS: Then he's going to file that on
5 Monday.
6 MS. PARRIS: Monday is final.
MR. GILLIAMS: He's going to file that on
8 Monday, correct?
9 MR. STOKES: Yes.
10 MR. GILLIAMS: Okay, Mr. Dodd.
11 MR. ABBOTT: My current intention would be,
12 until directed differently from the city attorney,
13 who I expect will wait for direction from you --
14 MR. GILLIAMS: Well, we're directing the city
i5 attorney.
16 MR. ABBOTT: -- would be to timely file the
17 response.
18 MR. GILLIAMS: We're directing the city
19 attorney to petition the Court for an extended
20 period of time because of the new council. So,
21 Mr. Stokes, if you want to direct your attorney.
22 MR. DODD: Mr. Gilliams, you're out of order
23 again.
24 MR. GILLIAMS: I'm sorry, Mr. Dodd.
25 MR. DODD: And you're out of order again. You
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
110
1 and I have been friends for quite a long time. I
2 want to tell you, you don't want me as an enemy.
3 MR. GILLIAMS: We could respectfully disagree.
4 MR. DODD: Respectfully.
5 Mr. Hill.
6 MR. HILL: I just have a question for
7 Mr. Stokes. Mr. Stokes, what is your legal advice
8 on this?
9 MR. STOKES: My legal advise is that you let us
10 stay the course and file this. Because the problem
11 is, if we sent out the draft -- which like I said,
12 is not common practice to send out drafts. The
13 reason is, let's say I send all five of you the
14 draft. You guys can't talk to each other about it.
15 The only way you can change anything that's in
16 there is to bring it up at a public meeting where
17 the five of you will start saying, well, you know,
18 here on page 3 you say X, Y, and Z, and you need to
19 change that. And then you're going to have to vote
20 on each one of those changes so that I can take down
21 all the changes so we can change the response to
22 file it.
23 That's not the way legal defense works. That's
24 why there's shade sessions, and that's why the
25 charter is written up in such a way that you hire a
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
111
1 city attorney, and they are then responsible for the
2 legal affairs. So that's a problem, is that if you
3 get the, if you get the draft before it's filed, how
4 is it that you're going to change it? That's why,
5 normally, I would just send it out after it's filed.
6 You're aware of what was filed, but there's
really no mechanism in place for you to change the
8 language of a response or a pleading or anything
9 else.
10 MR. DODD: The only thing that you can do to
11 the draft is change the language so it says what you
12 want it to say. And are you an attorney? And given
13 the fact that what the attorney is trying to do, is
14 to defend the action of the council against this
15 lawsuit.
16 What do you want to gain? That's all I want to
17 know, is what do you want to gain? If what you want
18 to gain is to overturn the process, if you want to
19 vote on that right now, I'm not going to vote on
20 whether you change a thing. But what I want to know
21 is - I'll have a consensus right now - do you want
22 to overturn the annexation process, period? Do you
23 want to overturn the annexation process? That's a
24 yes or no answer.
25 MR. GILLIAMS: Yes.
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
112
1 MR. DODD: Yes. What's your answer,
2 Ms. Parris?
3 MR. GILLIAMS: Rehear it.
4 MR. DODD: What's your answer?
5 MS. PARRIS: I don't know.
6 MR. DODD: You have to have a yes or no.
7 Seriously, you have to have a yes or no. Because if
8 you want to direct this man to sabotage our defense,
9 let's do it.
10 MS. PARRIS: I'm not informed enough.
11 MR. STOKES: Can I intervene with an idea
12 perhaps?
13 MR. DODD: Yes.
14 MR. STOKES: Is if you let us file the response
15 on December 2nd, you will all get a copy it as soon
16 as it's filed. That's not set in stone.
17 December 11th meeting comes along. One of you make
18 a motion saying, I've read the petition, I've read
19 the response, I want to direct the attorney to file
20 a further notice with the Court.
21 MR. MAUTI: And then make a motion.
22 MS. PARRIS: So that's possible?
23 MR. STOKES: In that regard, we could file
24 something later. Because like I said, there's going
25 to be oral argument or something. So if you wanted
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
113
1 to direct us at some point to make a
2 further filing --
3 MR. DODD: Now, this isn't a wordsmithing
4 issue. We're not going to say, I mean, we're not
5 going to come in on the 11th and tell the guy to
6 rewrite 75 percent of the document because we don't
7 like the words that come together. You have to talk
8 about principles. I don't want defend this
9 principle, correct?
10 MR. MAUTI: He can file on the lath after we
11 review it. We can ask for an amended motion,
12 period, correct?
13 MR. ABBOTT: I think that's probably right. If
14 you all decided --
15 MR. MAUTI: I have no problem with that, filing
16 an amended motion.
17 MS. PARRIS: We don't want to dissect it.
18 MR. ABBOTT: -- I could probably file another
19 paper, for instance, confessing an error for the
20 amount of time people --
21 MS. PARRIS: Does that satisfy you?
22 MR. DODD: So is that a reasonable approach?
23 MS. PARRIS: Sounds reasonable to me.
24 MR. DODD: All right. So let's get a consensus
25 on that. We'll have in our packet meeting on the
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
114
1 11th. We'll have a document that he files. You'll
2 have the time to look at it. You'll have time to
3 compare it. At that point in time, then we can talk
4 about what we need to do with it.
5 MR. GILLIAMS: We stop the train before it
6 leaves the station, and I say we do it now, the time
7 for us to review that response. So I'll vote no for
8 that.
9 MR. DODD: Your answer is no?
10 MR. GILLIAMS: Yes. Correct.
11 MR. DODD: Mr. Hill?
12 MR. HILL: Yes, of course.
13 MR. DODD: And, Ms. Parris?
14 MS. PARRIS: I'm going to vote no. I'm still
15 uncomfortable here.
16 MR. MAUTI: I'm going to vote yes.
17 MR. DODD: I'll vote yes.
18 MR. GILLIAMS: Problem solved.
19 MR. DODD: We're done.
20 (The proceedings concluded at 7:01 p.m.)
21
22
23
24
25
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
C E R T I F I C A T E
I, CYNTHIA O'CAIN, a Shorthand Reporter and
Notary Public of the State of Florida at large certify
that I was authorized to stenographically report the
foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a true
and complete record of my stenographic notes.
DATED this 30th day of December, 2019
tCJJ� �Zv>1,
CYNTHIA O'CAIN
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
115
I
A
a.m 30:20
Abbot 96: 20
Abbott 1:19 3:3
8:24 13:24,25
14:9 15:4,6,13
16:5,12,22
18:1,2,7,24
19:4,8,11,19
20:1,5,20
37:15 39:20
52:25 53:2,22
53:25 55:2,16
60:10,15 63:9
63:13 79:13,23
92:10,14,18
94:14,19 95:8
97: 2,8,16,18
97:23 98:20
100:15 102:10
102:14,20,25
103:3,8,11,13
103:23 104:1
104:11,18,23
105:5,9 106:2
106:6,8,11,25
107:3,16
109:11,16
113:13,18
able 22:12 31:1
43:1,5 45:20
95:16 96:21
105:25 108:25
109:1
absolutely
15:13 34:18
56:2,5,14
absolve 82:20
82:23,25
accept 97:6
103:18
acceptable
85:18,19
accomplish
87:24 91:7
93:10,12 94:10
98:8 103:4
accurate 50:4
acreage 4:9
acres 4:10,10
9:22 12:13,14
51:16 90:25
act 35:21
action 2:19,21
2:24 3:19,22
4:13,21 5:9
16:9,14 19:21
22:23 84:6,7
87:10 88:10,12
88:12,23,24
89:9,14 100:20
101:4 104:19
106:20 111:14
actions4:22 5:3
16:25 69:21
88:18 99:19
active 75:14
actual2:24 39:3
actuality 3:11
add 8:23
additional44:13
address 8:3
9:24 10:9
25:16,16 78:16
97:5 107:4
addressing 9:5
59:13
adequate 92:3
adequately
91:15
adjust44:22
adjustment
90:13
administrator
10:3
admonishment
2:7
advantageous
51:24
advice 17:20
58:6,7 64:11
110:7
advise 17:18
22:1 32:14
36:2 67:5,9
110:9
affairs 54 : 4,14
111:2
affirm 8:22
afford 21:20
afforded 31:24
agenda14:23
56:1,3,6,15,19
107:23
ago 104:8
agree 16:13
26:9 35:16
39:20 54:21,21
92:5,6
agreement 5:13
5:14 19:13
22:8 28:14
33:7 45:8,16
54:5 72:21
83:5,8 102:6
103:21 104:3,3
104:10 106:22
106:23
agrees 66:24,25
ahead 22:13
29:17 30:9
54:12 63:10
71:6,7 80:15
86:11,12
aligns 33:6
allegations 7:25
10:2 101:6
alleging 3:21
allow 13:5,8,15
47:14 57:23
63:15 90:12
allowed 40:11
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
106:12 107:9
amend 20:17,18
amended
103:19,20,24
103:25 113:11
113:16
amendment
28:18
amount 32:9
33:5 113:20
ample 23:14
25:15
ancillary 18:20
angle 73:15
74 :16,17,17, 21
74:22
annex9:14 34:7
40:3 66:11
annexation 3:16
3:16 5:13,13
6:12,14 7:9,9
7:18,18 9:4,6
10:5,10,12
11:4,7,16 14:5
16:24 17:1
18:18 20:22,23
21:9,11,14,19
22:8 23:6,7,10
23:11,19 24:7
24:15 26:5,8
28:14,18 31:22
32:22 33:3,6,7
37:5,7 38:1,10
40:10,17 41:18
43:9,16 44:12
45:15,16 48:5
52:21 55:13
57:16,17 65:25
66: 5,8,10,14
66:17 68:3,4
68:17,19 73:10
77:4 82:19,23
83:5,7,8 85:13
90:20 96:13
2
100:2,7,10,24
101:2,11,24
102:6 103:18
103:21 104:2,9
105: 2,6,13,20
106:22 107:8
111:22,23
annexations
10:21 40:7
annexed 39:5
40:5
announced
30:20
answer 12:16
35:17 36:16,22
37:16 57:9,11
57:12 58:4
62:23,24 71:24
79:19,19 89:19
89:20 91:3
94:23 96:23
98:20 100:19
104:11,14
111:24 112:1,4
114:9
answers 95: 25
anticipate 49: 21
anybody 3:17
17:5,6,13 61:2
96:20
anymore 86:16
anyway 3:8
74:8 89:6
apartments
49:4
apparently
24:18,20
appeal 10:13
18:15
appear 105:21
APPEARANCES
1:11
apple 28:1,5
application
48:11 49:24
107:14
applications
48:11
apply 49:13
approach 22:3
113:22
approaches
11:7
appropriate
33:18 54:17
87:5 107:18
approve13:9
47:8 64:14
82:16
approved 13: 10
25:8,18,18
41:25 47:5
48:12
approves 41:24
area 9:17 10:2
13:17,20 38:22
39:4,10 40:5
areas34:8
argue 31:15
33:22 34:6
argued 31:15
argument
112:25
arguments 8:6
8:13,18 11:18
11:19 39:22
89:4,7,8 96:16
articulated
107:17
aside 19:5,7,18
20:17,18 22:6
28:14,15 31:14
33:8 79:1,2,10
79:16,21 81:6
104:3,10 106:1
106:5
asked 21:18
35:8,13 66:7
89:1 96:19
108:20
asking 15:1
21:10 29:16
30:10 32:25
34:24,25 36:9
54:24 55:2,16
57:8 58:18,21
59:7 61:8,9,11
61:14,16,21
62:6,9 69:15
70:19,24 72:15
86:23 91:11,20
94:13 100:12
103:5,8,14
104:9,23,25
108:22
assessed 44:18
assist 40:25
42:16
Associates
50:22
assuming 74:16
91:15 103:15
106:21
attack 20:9
attorney 1:18
1:19 5:6 15:2
15:3,23 16:6
16:13 17:7,8
17:17,18 18:19
20:2 21:25
22:13 28:9
29:23 31:7
32:2,12 33:14
35:1,2,9 36:1
52:23 54:24
57:5 58:3 59:5
59:9 60:13,14
60:16 61:25
63:11,12,13,18
63:20 64:10
67:5,23 74:2,2
76:6 77:20
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
85:16 87:2,3
89:7 93:22,23
93:25 94:23
95:15 96:1,11
96:19 97:5,12
98:18 101:4
106:18 108:20
109:12,15,19
109:21 111:1
111:12,13
112:19
attorney's 88:11
ATTORNEY-C...
1:4
attorneys 33:21
35:14117 36:17
36:22 61:3
64:16 89:5
August 68:22,23
89:24 90:2
authority 53:10
53:14,16 58:19
58:22
authorized
20:12 115:6
Autobahn 3:7
3:10 37:24
65:15 84:4,11
85:5,9 93:14
96:15 104:12
Autobahn's 7:21
available 18:6
53:3,5 54:18
aware 111:6
B
B 88:7,13
back3:6 4:3,16
8:21 12:15
25:11 27:3,23
28:16 35:5,16
55:14 58:9
65:1,2 70:3
85:5 86:20
3
90:7,7,8 92:25
95:11 99:25
background
5:24 40:20
backtrack 32:6
bad 12:2
badmouthing
2:11
balance 49:25
barrel 67:15,20
base 79:4
based 6:24
23:23 94:3
101:22 108:1
basically 2:15
6:12 60:5 98:3
108:10
basis 83:22
106:16
Bass 11:1
battle 43:6,7
Bay 45:22
Beach 46:4,7
bear 73:9
beating 91:18
91:19
beginning 38:6
behalf 5:18
32:13 58:5
believe 12:1,3
24:19 30:23
46:10 56:11
92:2 95:12
belong 54:14
beneficial46:25
best 8: 5 50: 7,14
better 37:13
42:5 74:20
beyond 89:6
biassed 50:21
Bierman 1:19
big 9:13 57:14
57:20 95:19
bigger 11:13
26:23
bill74:3 97:1
binding 19:15
79:8
bit 3:8 5:24
64:22,23
bite 28:1,4
black 42:23
bleeding 39:16
Bluewater
45:21
board 22:15
28:10 33:9,14
body 6:24
108:15,16
books 10:14
103:7
border 34:7
38:15 42:8
bottom 12:18
49:6
bound106:13
boundary 6:18
9:11,18 38:18
38:20
breach105:22
105:23 106:19
107:1
break106:21
breaks41:23
brief 37:12
65:21,22 93:20
97:11 99:6
100:21,25
101:5 103:15
103:24
bring 30:1,2
31:13 35:11
36:5 37:4
38:13 39:17
43:1 51:16,24
54:9,13 110:16
bringing 9:21
36:7 43:12
55:14
brings 37:25
broke 66:25
brothers 11: 2,3
22:10,21,23
24:8 31:14
32:10 38:10
41:23 43:24
48:22 84:9
85:10,11
101:12 106:22
brought 10:3
26:10 73:8
build 52:6 107:8
building 7:6,16
48:5
bullying 84:14
bunch 23:22
C
C 115:1,1
call10:18 15:20
15:25 16:10,17
59:2,3 90:19
98:25
called 105:15
calls42:18
campaign 22:3
23:20 68:8,11
69:11
cancel19:22
78:9
capacity 20:8
capture 9:15
care 76:4
careful43:13
55:8 87:13
CARLISLE 1:14
13:10 27:18
case 2:16 3:4,7
3:9,10,11,13
3:13,17 4:19
6:21 7:4,23
11:18 17:8
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
23:10 24:9,20
34:5 37:2,10
37:11,12,14,22
38:14,17,20
42:25 43:9,12
46:10 57:24
59:9 64:13
65:5,5,6,8 66:4
66:21,24 67:14
71:13 75:14,22
81:15 83:18,20
83:23 85:10
95:16 105:17
106:23
cause 22:24
73:1 87:16,18
97:8 103:11
caused 73:1
82:4
causes 22:23
cautious 2:13
CEO 11:1
certainly 5:25
19:19 39:21
40:8
certainty 40:10
certified 33:14
certify 115:5
certiorari 3:20
18:16
Chair36:3,4
59:13,16 61:9
61:14,20,21
62:7,9 108:17
Chair's 61:22
challenge 3:18
6:10 39:23
48:21
challengeable
48:25
challenged 6:11
18:12 70:3
88:23
challenges 5:5
n
CHAMBERS 1:5
chance 14:14,15
14:19 22:14
31:22 55:7
77:11
change 27: 23
48:16 56:23
70:8,10 72:10
72:11,20 75:18
75:20,21 79:5
79:7 99:6
110:15,19,21
111:4,7,11,20
changed26:25
34:2 74:8
changes110:20
110:21
changing14:21
106:14
Charles 1:13
14:3 17:14
55:13 59:11
69:8,10,20
71:7,25 72:17
72:23 73:13,23
86:11 88:9
95:20
charter 54:3,13
73:25 110:25
checks49:24
chime 6:2 89:5
circumstances
107:18
city 1:1,2,5,14
1:18 2:22 4:22
6:18 7:16 9:10
9:18 12:25
13:4 16:6,13
16:21,23,23
17:5 18:19
23:3,5 24:18
24:22,23 25:13
27:20 31:7,15
32:25 33:16
35:2 43:24
44:10,17 45:20
46:4,8,20,21
46:22,23,25
47:6,7 51:16
51:17,24,25
52:23 54:4,14
54:23,24 57:14
57:15,18,19,19
57:24 59:9
60:13,14,16
63:11,11,13
72:20 74:1,2
81:13,17 83:6
85:15 88:11,17
88:18 90:25
91:1 93:21,23
94:23 95:1,6
96:10,10 97:12
98:18 101:22
102:11,19
104:13,22
105:1 106:18
106:24 107:7
109:12,14,18
111:1
claiming 10:14
claims 101:9
clarified 38:5
clear 55:23
66:18 74:19
83:3 100:7
closed 2:3,9,25
clouded 6:7
coach34:13
COD 50:5
coerce 84:25
Coglin 52:5
Cole 1:19
combined 32:23
come2:13 7:2
8:13 10:5
25:11 27:3
28:3,16 40:16
49:15 51:7
65:1,2 67:15
67:19 80:2
84:23 113:5,7
comes 2:17 9:12
51:15 109:1
112:17
comfortable
50:24 51:1
98:4
coming 27:9,9
65:18 96:8
comment 10:6,6
10:7,9 48:10
48:13
commercial
42:9 47:13,14
47:17,23,24,25
48:3,6 49:5,12
49:14,21 51:17
51:18,19,20,23
52:6
commercial/...
49:1,2
commercials
49:6
commission
10:4 17:6 23:4
26:18 40:9
43:11 74:25
105:11 106:17
commission's
101:4
commissioners
49:9
commisssion's
100:19
common 110:12
community 14:6
41:3 46:5,6,6
82:7,13
comp 43:19
48:16 49:20
51:18
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
compact 6:19
6:22 7:10,19
9:11,12,17
compactness
38:24
compare 114:3
compared 100:3
complained
41:21
complaint 21:21
37:23 95:24,25
complete 24:17
115:8
completely 9:5
13:10 47:1
94:12
compliant 31:25
complied 107:20
comprehensive
9:4 25:1,1
26:24 27:5
compute 50:2,4
concern 9:3
concerned
11:19 37:18
concerns24:13
73:8
concluded
114:20
conclusion
85:11
conditional 51:8
conditions
49:16 98:22
condos 49:5
confess18:14
confessing
105:15 113:19
confidential
98:23,24
confused 38:6
62:16,17 71:21
connect 13: 5,14
connection
I
18:15
consensus28:8
28:10,12 32:15
33:8 58:11,14
58:18,21 59:4
59:8 60:9,17
60:21 61:16
63:8 108:3,5,6
108:7,23
111:21 113:24
consent102:11
102:18,21
103:1
consistent
39:25
conspiracies
12:4
conspiracy 12:1
12:9
constitutes 5:14
constitutional...
5:5
constrained
11:16
construction
44:11
consultant
48:20
contend 107:6,7
contiguous 6:18
6:22 7:10,18
9:10,18,21
34:4,7 40:5
contiguousness
38:14
continuance
86:23 87:15
97:13
continue 30:15
30:16 78:12
85:12
continues 40:9
contract 5:11,11
5 :14,16,17,18
18:21 19:9,12
19:14,15,22
20:6,6,8,9,10
20:12 42:22
44:7 65:9
68:15,19,24,25
75:21 78:23,24
79:3,4,24,24
80:22 81:2,3,5
81:6 83:2,2,4
83:11,13,15
84:8 100:11
104:13,20
105:22,24
106:9,15,19
107:1,20
contracting
107:19
contracts 79:8
106:13,14
control24:17,23
24:23 29:7
43:17 45:20,21
46:9,11,19
47:4
controlled 12:6
controlling
45:20
convene57:2
CONVENING 1:3
conversation
87:2,4
conversations
11:8,8 17:6,13
17:16
convince 46: 8
cooperation
41:8
copy 16:3,4
54:15 69:5,6
92:13,17,20,24
102:1,4 112:15
corner45:22
Corporation
11:2 78:25
correct 9:22
13:18 15:12,16
16:21 18:5
30:13 41:1
47:12 48:23
61:10,22 62:8
62:9,12,18,21
63:4 68:9
77:19 79:7
80:23 85:7
92:18 100:14
109:8 113:9,12
114:10
correctly 31:19
62:19 64:1
corridor 48:6
49:22
cost 42:21 45:2
45:17 69:16
council 1:2,5,15
1:16,17 2:22
4:23,23 16:20
16:22 17:5
18:2,13 20:15
22:2 24:18
25: 9,12,18,19
27:9,20 31:2,6
31:16 32:5
33:16,24 34:2
46:16,21,22,23
47:6,7 53:15
54:8,10,11,11
54:18,23 55:6
55:20 56:4,7
56:16,20 57:1
57:15,18 58:20
59:24 60:4,9
60:24,25 61:11
74:1 84:17,20
85:19 88:10,11
88 :12,14,17,18
88:22,23,24
89: 5,8,14
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
92:25 96:6,11
97:1 98:10
103:16 107:24
109:2,20
111:14
council's 46:21
Councilmen
100:15
counsel 54:10
88:6
countered 23:22
county 7:4,11
7:15 10:3,4,6
12:25 13:7,8,8
17:6,7,7 23:2,4
23:13 24:10,11
25:20,22 26:18
27:20 38:16
41: 5,8,13,24
42:8 43:11
44:1 45:23
46:1,7,7 47:14
48:7 49:9 52:2
52:3 57:22
74:25 82:9,12
83:6
county's 9:3
107:10
course 5:20
6:20 56:17,19
56:23 110:10
114:12
court2:4,5 3:24
4:1,3,7 19:17
22:21 23:10
32:25 40:2
42:25 55:9,16
58:9,12 60:22
63:14 64:18
65:21,23 71:23
75:22 77:12
78:10 83:18,20
85:4,8 87:14
87:21 90:1,4
RA
94:1,2,16 97:6
97:9 103:14
104:21,24,24
104:25 105:4
108:11 109:19
112:20
courtroom
34:19
courts 55:3
56:13 96:4
103:5
create 25:12
44:16 57:19
created 57:14
57:15,16 82:21
83:11
creating 26:2
49:10 57:13,25
criteria 51:8
crowd 90:15
current 6:18
9:10,18 97:25
109:11
currently 92: 10
curve 45:23
cut 23:24,25
90:11 101:19
cutter SO: 8
CYNTHIA 115:4
115:14
D
dais43:2
damage 107:21
damages4:6
5:18 107:5,10
107:12,14,16
107:18
Damian 108:12
Damien 1:16
14:3 15:17
24:18 26:1
29:3,13,21
35:4,16 53:17
57:7 59:20
63:8 67:6 72:5
72:6,24 74:12
81:11 84:16
88:16 89:19
90:7 91:21
94:8 99:24
108:8
Damien's 66:4
Dan 1:19 33:15
37:15 39:11
52:23 60:10
96:20
date 43:20
101:16 108:25
DATED 115:11
dates107:24
day 2:13 85:23
115:11
days 8:19 69:17
70:11,13 72:9
72:25 73:14
74:24 75:17,17
75:17 86:24
94:2 98:6
108:8
deadline 98:1,1
deal 24:11
72:19 84:1
dealing 6:8
11:15
dealt2:8 45:11
45:11,13
debate 85:22
107:25
debating 85:24
December 14:23
15:22 56:4,7
56:16,20,22
107:23 112:15
112:17 115:11
decide 8:8,14,16
8:16 11:6
65:23 73:14
79:4 85:12
90:4
decided 27:8
113:14
decides 34:6
90:17
decision 3:25
89:22 91:17
96:22 109:3
decisions46:13
46:18
default 98:2
defend 4:22 5:2
5:6,8,15,16
22:22 50:3,3
65:10 88:11,24
89 : 8,14, 23
91:4 99:19
106:19 111:14
113:8
defending 65:8
65:19 88:12,15
90:3 93:19
95:23 100:19
101:4
defense 88:4
91:10,12,16,24
93:13,15
110:23 112:8
defenses 39:14
93:14
defensible
34:20 39:18
65:2,3
define 6: 21
definitely 38:25
definition 49:7
49:11
definitions 6:20
degree 67:4
delay 87:15,20
87:25 96:4
97:14 98:5
108:4
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
delayed 70:10
delaying 98:6
demand 83:12
demanded 83:4
83:8
denied 97:21
103:17
dense103:4
densities 24:24
density 7:5,16
27:6 38:2
deny 97:9,20
Department
13:13
depicts 39:4
description 33:2
descriptions
31:18
descriptive
31:18
design 10:15,17
10:19 11:25
12:17
designs47:16
desire 71:22
desirous 48:6
detail 52:10
94:11
details 23:17
determine
61:21 62:7
develop12:22
12:23,25 13:7
44:5 46:24
developed 45:4
developer 47:20
development
28:5 46:2
47:13,15,17,25
48:4 49:22
107:9
develops 90:20
devil82:22,24
dictating 59:6
7
difference 38: 22
66:13
different5:4 9:5
22:2 24:4 39:2
39:21 44:11
103:16
differently
100:20,25
109:12
direct 15:14
16:3 32:3,3
55:2,20 59:4
60 :12,12,14,16
60:17 74:1,2
76:5,9,15
85:19 88:6
94:112 95:17
96:20 97:2
106:17 109:21
112:8,19 113:1
directed 12:6
31:5 89:12
93:23 109:12
directing 34:25
59:8 85:25
96:11 109:14
109:18
direction 2:17
2:20 32:16
33:10 54:16
55:22 59:10
60:24 63:19,21
72:16 88:6,7
93:25 97:3
103:16 106:17
108:22 109:13
directly 45: 24
80:2 96:1
dirty40:6
disagree 67:16
67:18 68:1
110:3
discovery 7:23
discuss 7:8
23:15 56:21
discussions
2:14 19:12
disguise 82:22
82:25
dispute 38:1
dissect 113:17
disseminate
92:19
Dixie 47:21
do-over4:20
8:21
doable 94:14,15
doctor11:22
document 45:16
68:21,21 73:21
73:22 76:3,4
76:22 83:5
92:15 101:11
101:25 102:4,5
113:6 114:1
documentation
92:4
documents 44: 7
44:11
Dodd 1:12 9:25
10:25 13:16,19
13:23 14:17,21
14:25 15:17,19
15:22 17:4,11
17:13,16,18,22
20:21,25 21:3
21:7,10,15
22:19 23:9
25: 2, 5,8,11,15
26:10 27:12
29 : 8,13,17, 21
29:25 30:4,9
30:12,16,19,23
32:19 33:11
34:11,23 35:4
35:7,11,19,22
35:25 36:4,9
36:12,14,18,20
37:1,11 39:19
40:13 41:15,21
42:4,7,24
43:21,23 44:1
44:15 45:7,15
47:5 48:15,24
50:1,23 51:6
52:14 53:1,5,9
53:14,16 54:2
54:7,17 55:25
56:3,6,9,15,20
56:22 57:2,7
57:10,13 58:8
58:15,19, 22
59:1,12,15,18
59:20,23 60:1
60: 3, 7,14,19
61:1,5,9,13,18
61:24 62:4,11
62:15, 20, 23
63:114,6,11,25
64:6,9,13,16
64:23 65:13,16
65:18 66:7,15
66:23 67:3,6
67:11,17,19,22
67:24 68:2,7
68:19,24 69:2
69 : 4, 9,10, 21
70:1115,17,20
70:24 71:2,4,6
71:18,21 72:2
72:13 73:6,24
74:10,20 75:3
75: 5,13,16,20
75:25 76:10,14
76.17,19,21,24
77:2,6,9,14,18
77:21 78:4,6
78:16,23 79:2
79:12,15,17,20
80:1,8,10,13
80:16,19,21
81:1,5,9,15,18
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
81:21,24 82:1
82:18 83:11,15
83:20 84:5,16
84:20,22,25
85:8,21,24
86:8,13,18
87:1,7,23
88:16 89:19
90:3,7 91:2,6
91:14,19,23
92:8,12,16,19
93:2,6,10 94:7
94:13,18,23
95:9,11 98:7
98:19 99:5,11
99:15,18,23
100:8,13
101:11,18
103:7 104:5
107:22 108:5,8
108:12114,24
109:10,22,24
109:25 110:4
111:10 112:1,4
112:6,13 113:3
113:22,24
114:9,11,13,17
114:19
doing 3:2 9:17
11:14 20:3
33:15 42:10
46:1 50:18
57:7,13 63:3,4
65:19,20,23
66:16 69:12
83:19 86:7
93:11
donating 45:7
Door 23:18
doors 2:25
downs 86: 20
draft 15:8 52:25
100:17 110:11
110:14 111:3
I
111:11
drafts 92:15
110:12
dramatically
27:23
drawn 44:12
drive 82: 9,13,14
82:15
dropped 10:10
dropping 65:11
65:14,16
due 6:14,17
14:10 16:11,12
21:18,22 31:24
77:16 92:10
96:18
E
E 115:1,1
earlier 18:4
38:2 66:8
108:21
ears 78:5
easy 84:10
ED 1:12
educate 2:16
75:9
educated 96:22
educating 84:21
either8:18,21
19:24
elaborate 17:3
elected 14:4,4
57:15,18
election 40:19
element 5:10
6:17 26:23
elements 6:12
7:17 9:6,8
27:22
emails 12:2
emergency
16:17 45:3
56:25,25
employees
50:14
empty 51:21
encourage
18:17
encumbered
42:12
encumbrance
11:11
enemy 110:2
engaged 54: 5
engineer39:9
48:12,16,20
50:19
entails 100:10
enter 82:8,11
106:12
entitled 15:4
96:25
entrance 47: 21
error 18:14
105:15 113:19
essence9:19
essentially
18:15
evaluate 91:25
evening 82:3
eventually 2:6
everybody 2:3
6:7 31:19,22
32:13 43:8
58:3,4 74:16
100:5 102:4
everyone's 3:9
evil 10:15,17,19
exact 39:9 62:4
exactly 19:1
48:4 55:19
88:13 99:22
100:7,8
example 101:12
excellent 8:24
27:15
excuse 15:18
21:7 28:24
29:1,4 55:7
95:7 96:5
execution 23: 3
executive 16:14
55:18
exist 88:17
expand 47:19
47:20
expansion 48:7
48:8
expect18:7
40:16 42:13
109:13
expenses2:17
experience 2:8
34:16
explain 29:24
41:12
exploring 19:25
exposed 5:17
exposure 4:19
expressed 30:4
extended
109:19
extension 55:3
55:17 56:11
58:13 60:22
63:14 64:14
69:15 71:9
94:17 97:10,25
102:14,17
103:9 108:21
extraction 10:8
extractions 7:7
extremity 83:3
eye -to -eye 43:4
F
F 115:1
facie8:2
fact13:9 23:23
47:3 73:2,2
84:18 111:13
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
facts 70:6,7,9
72:8,18 75:18
90: 2,5,6,16
factual70:7
factually 73:7
fairness 105:17
falls 90:21
familiar3:9
15:10 102:22
102:23
family 11:3
far 11:18 22:9
38:13
fast64:21
favor 84:4 85:5
85:8
fear46:22,25
February 27:10
27:12
fee 44:16,18
feedback 82:7,9
feel 5:24 6:25
10:23 40:18
42:11 65:1
91:6
feelings 31:1
fees 22:9 44:13
44:15,19,21,22
44:23
Fellsmere 12:15
felt50:21
fight85:16 86:9
file3:19 8:3
19:21 92:24
93:7 97:10,11
97:23 99:6
103:15,19,20
103:23 104:19
109:4,7,16
110:10,22
112:14,19,23
113:10,18
filed 3:15,21
7:11,25 33:17
WE
60:23 89:2
92:10,23,24
111:3,5,6
112:16
files 99:7 114:1
filing 14:12 57:E
113:2,15
fill 68:8
final 18:11
53:22 90:22
92:12,16,20
105:10 109:6
finalize 24:8
finalized 75:22
92:9
finally 27:8
financial49:24
49:25 50:6
find 18:17 26:1E
35:12 45:6
105:16 106:4
106:20
finds4:2
fine63:7 88:5,5
finished 32:19
53:6
fire45:2 95:3
first 2:15 3:5,5
3:10 9:20
10:15 11:4
17:4 27:2 33:3
33:6 37:19,24
39:12 66:18
68:15 85:9
89:3
five 16:3 33:23
110:13,17
fix4:25 42:4
57:21,22 66:9
66:19 68:10
flaw 4:15
floor 29: 2,4
30:19 43:3
49:6,6 95:12
Florida 1:6 2:4
3:15 15:11
115:5
flowed 7:3
follow 16:1
81:11
followed 96:14
101:16
following 2:1
14:22 18:8
forbid 82:21
foregoing 115:7
foremost 14: 5
forget 50:9
forgetting
107:23
formal 2:18,21
107:25 108:1
108:15 109:2
format 2:15
forth 11:20
69:13 70:13
86:25
forward 41:1
44:10 46:19
48:19 50:20
57:23 65:5,7
72:21 82:5,6
85:13
foul34:12,12
found 4:8 7:15
four36:21
frankly 11:15
22:21 33:20
free 37:16
friend 35:13
friends 110:1
front 2:10
frustrating 13:2
further112:20
113:2
fury 57:17
future 2 5: 16
26:24 27:1,22
27:25 28:2
48:15,25 49:19
90:22
G
gag 26:11 42:25
98:18
gain 26:4 70:15
76:1,2 111:16
111:17,18
gains 76:2
gated 46:5,5,6
ge 75:5
general 5:6 39:4
39:10 49:13,14
generally 101:7
106:3,12,13
gentleman
54:22 58:6
95:22
getting 8: 20
13:2 26:21
59:8 60:21
64:18,19
107:22
Gilliams 1:16
13:22,24 14:2
14:13,19,24
15:1111,14,18
15:20,23 16:9
16:16 17:2,12
17:21,24 18:5
18:22,25 19:5
19:10,17,24
20:2,14,24
21:2,5,8,13,17
28:6,22,24
29:1,4,6,10,16
29:19,23 30:2
30:6,10,15,17
30:22,25 32:20
33:12 34:22,24
35:6,9,18,20
35:23 36:1,7
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
48:23 52:19,20
53:3,7,12,15
53:20,23 54:19
55:10,12 56:2
56: 5,14,18,21
56:24 57:4,8
57:11 58:2,11
58:17,21,24
59: 3,14,17,19
59:21,25 60:2
60:6,8,16,21
61:4,8,11,16
61:19,23,25
62:9,18 63:7,9
63:13 64:3,5,8
64:10 66:6,19
67:2,4,8,16,18
67:23 68:1,12
69:20 70:19,22
70:25 71:3,5,7
71:12,20,24
72:6,12,15
73:17,23,25
76:5,11,15,18
76:20,23 77:1
77:5,7,10,16
77:19,22,25
78:3,14 79:1
79:10,13,16,18
79:22,25 80:9
80:11,15,18,25
81:14,16,19, 22
81:25 83:7,14
83:19 84:10,15
84:18,21,23
85:7,15,22
86:1,5,9,17
87:17,22 88:9
88:14 89:15,18
91:13,17 92:6
94:14,19,22,25
95:4,8,12,13
98:17,24
102:10,16,23
10
103:1,5,10,12
103:19,25
104 : 2, 7,17, 21
105:3,7,25
106:4,7,10,21
107:2,12 108:3
108:6,10,13,20
109:4,7,10,14
109:18,22,24
110:3 111:25
112:3 114:5,10
114:18
gist 76:10
give 2:19 8:12
16: 2, 3,4,19
17:20 21:18,22
25:22,23,24
31:10 34:12
39:5 54:15
55:17 58:6
59:9 64:11
66:6 71:15
96:5,22 97:11
97:24 105:7
given 6:15
101:25 105:1
111:12
gives 50:19
giving 22:16
74:4 102:12
go3:8 11:21,24
12:15,15 20:3
21:11 23:12,13
24:9 25:5,19
26:17,17 27:2
27:23 28:2
29:17 30:9
32:16 40:24
41:4,7 42:10
44:13 47:9
50:20 51:14
54:12 58:9
59:22 63:9
69:13 70:13,22
71:6,7 80:15
80:16 85:5
86:11,12,20,24
86:25 87:3,9
87:11120 88:6
97:3 99:25
102:6 105:14
God 12:12 74:11
goes 22:13 28:5
30:21 34:3
46:14 47:19
49:20 71:22
92:25
going 2:5 3:5
4:10,13,15
9:14 10:23
12:12,24 13:11
15:20 16:19
17:22 18:3,22
18:25 22:24
23:12112,17
24:25 25:22,23
25:24,25 27:6
27:7,18 29:6,8
29:9,10 30:12
31:21 34:13,18
35:11 37:18
39:22 41:9,22
41:22 43:5
44:5,8,13,22
44:25 45:2
46:13,18,22,23
46:24 47:14
48:9 49:8,11
50:7 52:7
54:15 55:15
56:6 57:5,10
57:18,19,22
58:24 59:6
62:4 63:18
64:1,3,6 65:4,7
65:7,23 66:23
67:1,14,19,24
69:13,14 70:6
70:7,9,14
71:11 72:10,10
72:13,21 73:9
73:16 75:6
78:8,11,21
80:16 83:23,25
85:4 90:18,25
91:15 98:11,15
98:25 99:6
100:4,5,6,21
100:21,25
101:21,23
105:3 108:9
109:4,7 110:19
111:4,19
112:24 113:4,5
114:14,16
gonna 77:3
good 41:13
50:16 76:7,7
87:16,18 88:9
94:22 97:8
gotten 6:7
government
4:22 5:3,9
33:14 89:1
governmental
2:24 3:19,22
4:13,21
governments
12:3
grand 11:25
12:8,17
grant97:9,19
Graves 11:1,2
22:9,21,23
24:8 31:14
32:10 38:10
41:23 43:7,24
47:12 48:22
67:14 78:24124
80:22123 81:1
81:6,7 84:9
85:10,11
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
101:12 106:22
great71:22
83:17 100:5,15
green 7:6,17
27:7 54:12
ground 97:5
grounds 19:20
19:22 20:5
79:23 97:17
100:18,22
101:2 104:20
105:16,23
106:2,4,19
group 16:2 59:4
growth 13:13
43:18 45:12,20
45:21 46:2,12
49:3 52:2
guarantee
25:21 83:24
guess18:15
91:14
guy 32:14 50:6
67:8 71:5
91:18 113:5
guys2:8 4:12
6:1 12:21
24:17 26:21
27:9 32:17
34:9 39:15,16
40:22 63:25
68:4 70:12
71:15,17 72:3
86:6 88:4
90:21 92:8
110:14
H
handle 59:5
handled 60:10
handling 8:9
28:9 59:9
hands 46:19,20
46:21 72:25
11
85:2
happen5:19
9:16 11:5 12:5
19:1 34:18
41:23 52:7
69:14 73:16
78:21 97:22
happened34:3
82:20
happening 52:2
happens 84:3
happy 73:19
100:4 101:8
hard 41: 6, 9,12
94:13
harm 69:14
75:23 86:22,23
hate 43:3
He'll53:5 71:3
hear3:24 15:2
17:2 31:7
32:12 36:16
66:10 77:12
91:3 95:5
100:8
heard 24:14
26:25 27:3
31:1,20,22
58:2 66:11,15
67:11 68:3,4
91:2,4 106:2
108:7
hearing 6:17
55:15 67:10
77:16,18 78:18
84:11
hearings 26:25
76:13,13 96:17
Heaven 82:21
height 7:16
heights 7:6
heirs 11:2
Helfman 1:19
hell 49:10
help 71:3
helter-skelter
11:24
hey31:15 39:16
59:19 86:2
hiding 12:2
54:20
highly 44:21
Highway47:21
Hill 1:15 13:13
13:18,21 17:10
24:12 25:3,7
28:23,25 29:3
29:5 32:5
36:18,19 41:14
45:10 47:3
50:9,12 60:12
62:13,14,19
63:3,5 69:8
71:17,25 72:3
72: 8,17,20, 23
73: 5,13,20
74:9 78:15113
84:14 85:18
86:3 89:16
93:21 98:13
110:5,6 114:11
114:12
hindsight 24:3
83:17
hire 54:11
110:25
hired 35:2 58:5
92:3 95:21
hold 14:24
32:20 58:12
61:9,14,19,21
62:7,10 75:17
holding 58:16
home 3:6
honest 96: 23
honor78:6
hope 105:18
hoped 107:8
hoping 20:3
103:4
hours98:23
houses42:1,8
housing 49:4
huge 38:21
hundred 47:11
hurry 75:2
95:19
hurt70:14
Hypothetically
20:6,7
I
idea 39:6
112:11
identify 106:19
idiocy 74:9
illegal 10:20
12:10 15:7
24:4
imagine 16:7
impact 44:13,16
44:18,19,21,22
44:23,24
implications
18:20
important 6:6,9
12:19 14:5
25:10 45:18
95:14
improper18:18
inappropriate
32:21
include 8:23
including 18:20
inconsistent
52:1,8
incorrect 9:22
62:8,12
incurred 45:17
Indian 48:6
indicated 97:12
individual 12:7
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
51:15
Indrio 9:14
information
40:20 102:8
informed 112:10
injunctive4:6
input 24:1 82:13
inside 13:19
instance 13:3
15:8 113:19
instruct 22:13
63:16 77:19
instructed 14:6
54:23 106:7
instructing 28:9
85:15
intent19:21
82:5
intention 10:20
109:11
interest 3:18
interested
11:14 14:21
interject 24:13
28:6
interpreter
96:24
interrupt 15:24
24:6 29:10
interrupted
28:7 30:8,14
31:3
interrupting
15:19 30:6
53:8,9 58:3
96:21
intervene
112:11
introduction
8:25
invalidate 20:5
104:13 105:19
106:8
invite 8:25
12
involved 3:4 6:5
12:20 23:20
24:14 75:6
involvement
41:3
ironclad 96:15
Island 65:12,15
issue6:5 14:13
21:1 26:5 33:5
37:5,7 39:1
40:4,14 41:19
42:17 52:17
55:23 57:25
67:12 68:3,5
76:10 85:22
103:6 107:5
113:4
issues 6:6 7:8
8:4 9:5 14:4,5
22:24 23:15,24
28:17 31:9,9
31:21 32:10
33:19,20,21
37:17,23,25
38:13 40:7
41:1,19 42:11
45:10 68:9
82:4,6 95:24
It'd 106:4
J
JAMES 1:18
January 27:10
27:12113
Jeanette 69:6
102:2
Jim 1:15 29:1
32:5 39:20
40:1 42:14
95:20
job 5:21 12:2
70:2 88:9,11
88:24 89:23,24
92:3 106:4
joke 30:22,23
judge 4:13,24
5:1 7:14 8:1,1
8:6,7,9,11,14
8:16 14:10
18:17 26:12
34:6,17 37:12
55:4 66:24,25
69:15 79:10,16
79:22 80:4
81:12 83:21,23
83:25 84:3,5,6
90:18 96:6
97:19,24 98:17
98:19 100:23
101:1 103:2
104:13 105:16
105:18,19
judicial 108:15
108:15
judification
65:11,14,17
jump 106:11
jumps 20:11
jury 79:20
justification
90:14
justify 101:2
K
keep 12:4 30:6
53:7,9 98:23
98:24
keeping 96:2
keeps 58:3,5
kept 13:3
kick 6:1,2
kind2:10 6:7
11:3 34:12
44:20 50:21
51:22 52:1,18
Knock 84: 23,23
know 4:11,23
5:19,23 7:22
8:14 10:17,18
12:13,16 20:18
20:19 22:2,3
23:24 24:18
26:3 27:16
30:17,23 33:14
34:13,18 37:3
38:21 39:7,8
40:24 45:1,19
48:24 52:20
63:25 64:2,17
66:1 67:21,22
67:24 68:2
69:13,14 72:24
74:14,21 75:15
81:18 86:15
87:8,23 89:11
91:8,9 93:15
93:19 94:8
96:9 97:4 98:7
104:15 110:17
111:17,20
112:5
knowing 12:19
34:17 55:5
knows 6:8
L
Lack 31:24
laid 95:18 99:19
land 9:20,21
11:6 26:24
27:1122125
28:2,18 32:23
38:11 39:5
43:25 44:4
45:7,8 46:14
46:24 48:15
49:1,19 66:2
90:20,22
landowner
45:18
language 111:8
111:11
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
large 115:5
late 64:3
law 6:24 14:20
34:5 39:3
41:11 67:2,4,6
88:25
lawsuit4:12
31:8 41:18
60:11 69:13
80:4,22 81:12
95:23 111:15
lawyer 39:13
83:24 104:5
lawyer's 5:20
70:17,21
lawyers 34: 5
lay 67:13,14
lead 35:1
leadership
16:23
leapfrogged
9:20
leave 95:2 98:11
leaves114:6
leaving 95:1
legal22:9 31:18
33:2119,21
34:15,16,20
37:13,17 44:17
54:4,14 61:13
73:11 79:6
85:10 89:4,7
92:22 93:18,25
106:16 108:16
110:7,9,23
111:2
legalities 91:25
legitimate 7:8
94:16
let's 4:8 9:12
20:25 22:19
23:5 26:13,15
35:12 38:10
44:10 49:16,17
13
49:17 50:9
64:23 66:17
68:10,10,10,11
71:14 78:13,20
90:7 110:13
112:9 113:24
level 5:4
liability 3:13
24:7 25:13
26:3 31:13
43:7 79:3
80:24 81:10
82:21,24 83:1
84: 2,8 107:3,4
Liberty 45:25
life 41:22
light 54:12
limited 4:18,19
limits46:4
90:25 91:1
line 12:18 34:12
Listen 78: 5
litigation 2:17
3:11 7:23
little 2:13 3:8
5:24 45:22
47:22 64:18,22
64:23
lived 30:24
living 83:12
local 15:6,9
33:14 89:1
long 9:14 12:4
30:21 67:7
75:13 85:23
110:1
longer105:12
look 3:24 8:7,8
9:16 14:14,15
14:19 15:4
16:17 20:16
22:7,10 27:21
28:11,12 31:4
32:1 39:3
43:15 44:7,10
46:3,3 49:8,12
54:19,25 55:19
59: 8,12,12,18
59:20 63:15
71:15,20,22
76:2,3,4,7,8
89:1 96:8 99:9
114:2
looked 20:19,20
39:11 50:15
74:5
looking 7:20
16:20 21:5,8
22:5 31:16
37:23 71:8,9
86:19,19 93:4
looks 8:1 21: 22
39:8
lose 40:1 59:19
63:22 67:13
70:16 71:14
80:21 98:2,5
102:11,18
103:6 105:17
105:19 107:3,4
losses76:2
lost 26:22
107:11,17
lot13:1 21:25
23:15 32:14
37:25 40:15
42:10 44:7
48:10 95:24
lots 24:3
love 26:7 74:11
low-income
49:4
lumps4:25
M
main 1:6 14:4
majority 32:4
34:2 105:12
making 40:25
46:13,18 52:21
55:23 96:16
98:5
mail9:13,15
man 78:5 86:4
112:8
manage 37:20
management
45:12 46:12
49:3
Manager 1:14
manipulate 80:3
81:11,15
manner 31:20
map 26:24 27:1
39:1,3,4,10
48:15 49:1,19
90:23
maps31:17
mass 9:21
matter 10:18
15:7 34:5 47:3
67:3 71:14
72:7,18 73:2,3
88:19
Mauti 1:13 9:19
17:15 36:9,11
36:13 37:9
43:15,22,24
44:3 45:1,10
48:9,18 49:23
50:6,11,13
51:4 52:12
56:8,11 62:25
68:16 69:11,17
70:5,9 71:8,13
72:5,22 73:12
73:22 84:3
85:2 86:12,19
88:3,21 89:10
89:13 91:4,8
91:21 92:2
93:1,5,9,13,18
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
95:7 98:14
99:2 112:21
113:10,15
114:16
mayor 1:12,13
13:22 27:19
29:6 30:22
32:5 53:25
54:22 70:23
92:25 93:21
95:13
mean4:5 19:8
22:10 42:21
50:1 52:9
64:24 68:2,24
69:4 77:21,22
77:23,24 88:10
90:16 91:23
103:3 113:4
meaning 9:10
27:5
means 6:22,23
18:14 78:19
80:21
meant 10 1: 20
mechanism
111:7
meet37:21
51:25 57:1
meeting 1:2
2:18,22 7:13
14:23 16:10,15
16:17 21:19
24:1 29:7,15
30:21 55:18
56:4,7116,20
56:25 57:1
62:19,22 68:20
68:22 78:10,12
90:13 98:12,22
98:23,24 99:3
101:16 107:24
108:15,17,19
110:16 112:17
14
113:25
meetings41:2
43:1
member 1:15,16
1:17 16:22
18:3 32:5
85:20
members 16:20
20:15 22:15
24:17 28:10
30:10 31:2
33:9 51:5 55:6
84:20 96:6
98:10
memorialize
2:20
mention 39: 25
102:2,3
mentioned 33:2
Metzger8:9,14
million 24:14
44:9 50:4
mind 106:14
mine 50:11
minute 2:12
28:7 57:23
93:2 95:7
minutes 23:25
23:25 32:21
33:23 90:11
101:20
misinformation
13:2
missing 99:17
misunderstan...
64: 5,8
mitigate 22:8
mitigation 32:9
modify 69:21
Monday 14:10
16:11,12 57:6
92:11,12,17
93:8 109:5,6,8
money 4:5,6
21:25 32:14
45:6 54:12
107:20
month 27:13
months 27:11
30:24
moot 11:18
morning 30:20
motion 97:10,10
97:20 102:11
102:13,14,17
102:18,20,21
108:1,24,25
109:1 112:18
112:21 113:11
113:16
mouth 12:4 77:8
81:20
move 7:4 33:10
41:1 65:4,7
82:5,6 85:13
multi -use 49:5
mystery 100:16
101:3
N
nasty 40:21
nay 24:24
near47:15,18
47:25
necessarily
46:12
need 30:14
32:18 39:17
41:2,3 43:17
44:4 45:4,5
48:3 51:23
66:21 78:9,12
87:16 98:23
110:18 114:4
needing 96:23
needs 43:24
46:11 47:12
51:17 71:11
negative 40: 21
negotiation
57:21
negotiations
41:4,7 82:12
never12:15
33:16 38:5
39:22 48:11
68:18 89:1
new9:13 16:19
16:23 22:1,15
31:5,15 33:1
45:4 55:5,6
59:9 87:17,17
95:14 96:6,7
96:11 97:2
109:20
new -hired 59:5
76:5 95:15
newspaper 39:2
night 27:1 34:3
54:9 67:7 93:8
normal 92:21
normally 111:5
north 10:2
38:17
northern 38:20
48:6
Notary 115:5
notes 115:8
notice 7:12
112:20
noticed 28: 20
notices 6:15
notification
31:17
NOVEMBER 1:7
number44:5,6
50:4
O
O'CAIN 115:4,14
objected 83: 7
obligation 4:21
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
5:2,6,8,15 65:9
65:10
obvious 106:11
obviously 16:9
16:25 21:22
63:22 74:4
95:22
oe 8:23
officers 73:25
official 16:14
offset 45 : 6
oh 12:12 24:15
101:17
okay8:11 21:10
30:9 36:14
44:12 50:11
62:23 64:8,9
67:11 69:3,7
71:6 76:1
77:18 80:20
81:8 86:18
87:1 88:17
92:19 94:22
98:3 101:17
102:9 106:10
109:10
old 47:21 50:17
96:10,10
once 8:5 9:6
10:12 78:11
80:21
one-on-one
87:1,6
ones 24:24 72:7
open 57:2
open-minded
55:5
opening 23:1
opinion 34:15
34:17,20 37:13
37:15 39:18
44:3 64:24
86:22
opinions 6:21
15
99:1
opportunities
23:14 28:4
opportunity 7:5
8:12 25:15
27:19,24 41:11
44:6 55:17
78:3 95:14
105:1,8
opposed 23: 7
24:15
option 10:24
13:6 81:10
82:1,2 87:12
89: 3,8
options 17:3
18:5 67:9
86:24 95:18,19
oral 8:6,13,17
112:25
order4:7 8:6,20
10:15 14:10
15:21 16:1
26:11 29:11,12
29:16,21,24,25
30:5,11 34:22
34:24,25 35:6
35:10,18,20,21
36:4,13,14
39:5 42:25
44:4 56:25
58:25 59:2,7
60:4,8,18 61:6
61:10,15,20,23
62:6,12 63:6
83:21 90:8
109:22,25
ordered 98:17
98:18
orders 80:4
ordinance 7:9
10:12 13:4
18:4,9,11,11
18:12 88:19
105:9
ordinances
12:25 13:1
organizations
43:10,12
organized 85:3
original 19:21
78:18 104:19
Oslo 46: 5 52:3
ourself 65:8
out -voted 36:21
outcome 87: 25
88:3
outpost 45: 5
outside 46:4
54:9
overall 22:17
49:23
overpass 52:5
overruled 63:2
overturn 40:17
66:8 76:25
77:3,6 78:2
111:18,22,23
overturning
77:24,25 101:2
owe 28:22
owned 12:7
owner 5:12,19
10:25 18:24
19:8,9,13,16
27:21 58:1
104:14 105:22
106:20 107:5
owners 10:22
owns 11: 5,12
P
p.m 1:8 114:20
packet113:25
page 110:18
pair46:1
Pam 14:3 72:5,7
95:20
PAMELA 1:17
paper105:14
113:19
papers 8:17
parcel39:7 42:1
parcels 41: 24
Parris 1:17 9:3
17:9,17,20
23:7 25:10,14
26:9 27:15
28:21 36:15,16
38:5 41:20
42:3,6,20 47:2
52:13 53:18,24
56:13 62:3,15
62:16,21 63:23
64: 2,4,14,20
65:11,14,17
66:1,4,13,17
66:21 67:21
68:6,14,17,23
69:1,3,7,16
70:16 72:19
73:4,18 74:8
74:18 75:2,4
75:12,15,19,23
77:3,24 78:22
80:6,20 81:8
82:16 83:10
85:14 88:2
89:17,22,25
92:5,7 93:8,17
94:5,11 97:4
97:15,17,21
98:3,9,15,25
99: 3,9,12,16
99:21 100:2,10
101:17 102:9
109:6 112:2,5
112:10,22
113:17,21,23
114:13,14
part5:12 7:8,14
11:12 13:21
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
25:10,21 37:25
38:4 53:18
63:24
particular 101:6
101:16
particulars
100:17
parties 8:12
20:13
partition 108:3
partner41:13
41:14 107:19
passed 10:12
68:20,21 88:19
passes 10:13
PAUL 1:14
pause 21:18
22:5 91:7
93:25 94:3,18
94:24
pay 74:3
payers 21:17
paying 21:25
32:14 97:1
peanut50:8
Pelican 65:12,15
people 2:10
22:1 23:15
24:2 26:8
27:13 31:5,17
40:16,23 41:1
41:21 42:12
43:2 44:4
46:23 64:15
66:9,10,11,15
68:9 74:18
75:10 76:12
77:1,10 83:6
87:17 96:7
98:10 105:7
106:12 113:20
percent38:17
38:19,21,22,23
47:12 113:6
16
perception
42:17
period 10:13
87:25 91:5
93:16 109:20
111:22 113:12
personally 11:9
20:15 22:2
40:18 51:2
perspective
52:10 87:24
persuade
105:18
pertaining
101:21
petition 3:19
7:25 18:16
19:7,17 20:17
37:24 55:16
58:12 60:22
63:9,14 93:24
94:16 96:3
103:17,20,21
103:25 108:11
108:21 109:19
112:18
petitioner
100:18,23
petitioners
31:25
pickle 41:18
picture 22:17
piece 10:16
12:11,11 13:19
47:22
pitch 74:4
place 2:21,24
6:23 82:15
89:24 90:2
111:7
plaintiff 17:8
plan 9:4 26:23
26:24 27:5
43:19 47:9
48:9,10,16
49:20 51:18
75:4
planning 14:11
25:6,7 75:7
plat 25:17
playgrounds
42:5
playing 11:25
pleading 8:7
33:17 89:2
111:8
please 6:2 15:25
30:18 35:5
36:22 67:7
104:8
PNZ 43:18 47:6
47:6
point7:4 8:18
8:18 15:20,25
16:22 29:11,11
29:16,21,25
30:3,4,11
31:15 33:13
34:22,24,25
35:6,9,18,20
35:21 36:4,13
36:14 41:10
48:17,18 52:16
58:25 59:7
60:3,8,18 61:5
61:10,15,20,23
62:6,12 63:6
66:7 74:15
88:8 92:8 93:3
97:5 108:16,16
113:1 114:3
pointed 33:25
points 5:1 39:17
police 45:2,5,9
policies 33:25
policy 34:1
pool 40:6
port 59:2
portion 9:20
position 32:8
65:22 70:4
possessed
17:25
possibility 5:20
28:15 86:21
possible 20:4
112:22
possibly 28:13
107:15
post-annexati...
82:17,18
postpone 66:21
postponing
42:21 97:6
potential 26:2
power 35:12
practice 110:12
practicing 88:25
preliminary
25:17
prepared 8:4
14:8,11 15:15
present8:13
37:7,12
presented17:25
48:22,24,25
50:18,21,23
71:13 91:10,11
president 11:1
presumably
97:23
pretty 4:18,19
prevail37:14
Prevent73:4
previous 17:1
33:6 60:24,25
89:14
previously 14:7
prima 8:2
primarily 11:1
24:1
principle 113:9
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
principles 113:8
prior 69: 22 93:6
93:9
privately 37:21
probably 8:20
16:6 18:8
27:10 38:9
50:13 83:25
105:13 113:13
113:18
problem 26:18
28:21 51:18
53:18 57:14,15
57:16,17,20,21
57:22 68:14,23
69:25 70:1
72:23 74:10,10
74:15 82:4
89:25 99:13
110:10 111:2
113:15 114:18
problems 22:8
66:9
procedurally
105:10,13
procedurals
108:14
procedure 61:19
61:24 62:2,5
90:13 92:21,23
procedures 15:9
16:1 52:15
96:14 101:15
101:23
proceed17:21
17:22
proceeding 7:15
19:20 98:21
104:18
proceedings 2:1
114:20 115:7
proceeds22:14
process4:15
6:15,17,23
17
7:10,19 9:8,9
13:11 14:22
21:18,23 23:11
23:12,13,14
24: 5,10,10,25
25:2,3,17,20
25:21 31:24
34:10 45:12,13
47:5,10 51:10
51:14 65:6
70:3 73:7,9,10
74:23 75:1,7,8
75:8,20 76:25
77:6,15,17
80:3 81:12
82:8,10,11
96:18 102:6
111:18,22,23
processes 25:4
produced 23:18
40:21
profit 98:4
profitable 107:9
profits 107:11
107:17
promise 39:22
97:9,19
promised 76:20
80:9,11,12
84:12
promises 68:8
68:11 69:12
proper 4:11
6:14,16 7:1
31:17,17,19
32:3 55:14
61:19,24 62:1
62:4 76:13
77:11,16,18
properly 3:23
4:1,2 5:25
6:15,16 28:20
31:16,23 90:5
96:14
properly -seat...
88:22
property 5:12
5:18 6:18
10:22,25 12:7
12:20,20,21,21
12:22,23 13:9
13:19 18:24
19:8,9,13,16
27:21 33:5
40:3 44:18
46:20 47:13
49:5 51:19,24
52:5 57:25
104:14 105:22
106:20 107:5
proposed 52:1
protect44:10
79:3
protected 92:22
proved 41:25
proven 47:15
provide 16:7
provided 45:23
49:25
provides 2:14
providing 65:21
public 2:7 16:15
21:17 23:25
26:14,15 38:6
39:6 42-17,18
42:22 43:1
59:17 73:21,22
76:13,13 82:6
82:9 84:12,18
98:15 110:16
115:5
Publication 69:1
publicized 6:16
published 6:21
PUD 25:8,11,17
25:18 28:4
47:5,7 82:14
purely 23:10
37:4,5,7 43:9
purposel:3
87:15 97:14,18
105:18
pursuing 57:5
push 74:6
put13:15 14:22
34:11 41:18
42:8 44:6
47:22 49:16
52:5 55:4 56:1
56:10 57:19
70:11,12 74:13
81:19 82:24
84:13,15 90:14
putting 28:8
56:19 63:16
77:7
Q
quarter -mile
49:10
question 12:24
17:4,25 19:1
24:6 34:14
35:8,13,17
36:23,25 37:1
53:13,21 57:8
71:25 76:1
79:14 91:14,20
91:22 92:8
95:21 97:4
99:5 104:12
110:6
questions 9:1,2
21:24 35:1
95:17 96:20
98:11
quick 24:12
quietly 15:25
quite 11:15
22:21 33:20
110:1
quote/unquote
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
3:12
R
R 115:1
raise 29:17 39:1
raised 28:18
33:19 40:7
60:3
ramifications
79:6
ran 52:20,21
55:13
rationally 44:24
read 8:11 23:17
32:1 52:22
70:12 93:8
95:24 112:18
112:18
reading 21:21
27:2,4 90:23
105:6
reads73:15
ready 53:21
real23:5 24:12
100:7
reality 23:1
really 6:6,9
11:14,18 12:2
15:6 23:23
43:25 51:12
66:18 73:6
89:2 91:8,9
94:7 100:4
111:7
reason 21:15
47:13,24 48:4
79:9 94:5,16
97:13 106:15
110:13
reasonable 9:12
35:8,13 38:24
113:22,23
reasonably 6:19
6:22 7:10 9:11
m
9:17
reasons 97:12
100:24 106:11
recess 95:9,10
95:11
recognize 82:3
recognized
107:18,21
recognizing
81:21,24
recommendat...
48:14 50:20
reconsider
18:10 105:2
record 2:7 7:24
55:24,25 63:8
74:13 84:12,19
90:14 93:22
94:4,20 95:17
115:8
recourse 22:9
rectify 82:5
redirect 28:13
31:6 56:21
60:4,10 96:9
redirection
22:16
redone 43:21,22
reduction 28:20
reflect 63: 8
regard112:23
regular 2:22
regulated 44:21
regulations
107:10
rehear 21: 5,8,14
21:16 31:16
66:20 76:8
77:14 78:17,18
80:5 81:22
83:21 105:5
112:3
rehearing 28:16
31:12 32:9,25
63:20 66:23
67:1 68:13
76:11 80:6
104:22,24
105:4
Rehearings
104:23
Reingold 17:17
17:18
related 40:14
44:24
relief4:7 31:11
31:12 81:23,25
102:11,13,18
102:21 103:1,6
103:14,16
104:16
relook 32:7
rely 38:14
remedies4:18
remember 6:9
18:2 36:24
58:20 83:9
90:19
reminding 2:2
repeat9:7
17:25 58:9
60:6
report 115:6
reporter 2:4, 5
55:9 58:9
64:18 77:12
78:10 115:4
reports 50:15
represent 77: 1
90:1 95:22
representing
31:8 32:2 62:1
95:16
represents
53:15 94:20
reputable 40:8
request 55:3
required 6:23
requirements
82:14,14
rescind 18:10
79:23 104:20
resolution 33:24
respectfully
110:3,4
respond 4:24
58:13 76:14
97:25 98:1
101:21
responding 7:21
70:3 80:4
responds54:14
response 8:3,4
8:8 14:7,9,11
14:15,16 15:5
15:8,15 16:4,4
16:12,18,18
22:14 28:11,12
31:4 33:25
37:2 52:22,24
52:25 53:20,22
54:20 55:1,4
55:19,20 57:6
58:12 60:23,23
61:1 63:15
65:22 69:19
70:7,11,18,21
71:4,10 72:9
72:10 76:7
90:10 96:4,8
97:24 100:13
100:16,17,24
101:3,8,13
109:17 110:21
111:8 112:14
112:19 114:7
responses 39:24
101:10
responsible
54:3 111:1
responsive
105:14
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
rest 100:3,4
restrict 28:5
result4:2
results 83:12
retain 106:18
retained 16:21
54:23 96:1
106:6
retreat16:24
17:1 18:4
revenue42:2
review 7: 24
22:15 27:14
33:16 48:13
53:4,21 63:15
64:15 69:18
99:10 100:12
113:11 114:7
reviewed 3:24
48:21 50:19
53:24
reviewing 55:14
68:15
reviews 47:6
rewrite 7 1: 10
113:6
ridiculous 62:16
right4:14 6:11
7:20 8:15 9:9
10:1 12:22,23
15:2 16:10,16
25:10 26:2,22
29:13,14 30:7
30:13 32:19
33:23 34:1
35:15,23 38:8
39:14,15 40:4
43:3,16 44:19
45:22 46:15
50:12,13 53:12
57:10 59:14,15
60:3 61:5 63:3
63:5 65:15
68:6 69:13
19
75:7119 79:13
79:20 80:16,18
80:18 81:9
84:14 86:8
95:5 97:2
99:10 100:12
101:22 103:12
105:17 108:1,5
108:24 111:19
111:21 113:13
113:24
rights 12:20
River48:7
road 3:6 7:7
9:14 10:8
44:14 45:3
52:3
roads 7:6
roll67:13,14
room 2:5,9
rooms 6:8
rope 96:3
route 51:20
ruckus 73:1,4
ruin 41:22
rule 29:17,19,22
29:25 30:12
81:16 83:17,21
83:23,25
ruled 35:7,19,22
37:19 57:24
61:20 62:5
rules 29:24 36:3
36:4 66:25
80:17 81:12
84:3 85:4,8
87:14 90:12
ruling 35:4 36:5
59:1 61:6,15
61:22 62:8,12
104:25
run 108:17,19
running 23:21
62:19,21
S
sabotage83:17
83:20 112:8
sailed 38:12
sales 74:4
sat 15:24
satisfaction
92:4 98:9
satisfied 8:1
98:10 99:14
satisfy 69:17
71:11 93:3
113:21
saw 10:5 48:9
saying 9:25
12:10 20:22
21:11 40:2
41:6 56:10
60:7 62:5,20
63:1 64:1,7
65:4 70:10
71:16 72:17
73:6 77:5 82:3
83:16 88:25
89:10,13,17
92:16 93:14
100:23 108:11
108:13 110:17
112:18
says 4: 24 34:1
39:4 44:12
65:21 93:20
101:19 111:11
scenario 4:19
106:23
scenarios 5:22
sceptical 11: 3
schedule 26:13
school45:8
50:17
schools 45:4
Schulte 50:22
scope 89:6
scoundrel 42:19
scratch 78:19
seated 55:7
Sebastian 1:1,2
1:6 11:7 13:21
17:5 23:4,5
43:25 46:25
47:12,15,18
48:1,3
second 3:4 5:10
9:22 12:11
14:24 27:4
28:1 32:20
33:4 49:6
78:16 90:23
105:5
seconds32:21
32:22 101:20
section 46: 5
98:20
see 11:4 15:8
19:13 20:16
39:12 48:13
52:7,10 53:19
54:5 55:19
63:17,19 68:14
69:24 70:11,12
71:4,10 72:9
73:18,20 76:21
77:7 78:14
86:22,23,24
88:4,4 91:24
92:3,14 93:2,6
93:9,13 95:19
95:24 98:6
99:5 102:7
107:14
seeing 28:13
48:10
seen 37:2,2
48:11 50:7,15
61:1 68:18
69:4
sees 49:20
segments 28:4
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
sell 32:17 43:25
44:1,4
selling 83:14
send 4: 3,15
8:21 55:22
92:13 110:12
110:13 111:5
sent 110:11
separate 23:11
23:12
separately 3:2,3
13:15 32:24
septic 13:4,5,8
38:3
serial 40:6
serious 50:14
Seriously 112:7
Serota 1:19
service 13:16,20
services 44:25
session 1:4 2:3
16:15 57:2
sessions 26:14
27:13 82:7
110:24
set 2:23 19:5,7
19:18 20:17,17
22:6,19 24:7
28:14 31:14
33:8 79:1,2,10
79:16,20 81:6
103:21 104:2,3
104:10 105:25
106:5 112:16
setback 40:12
setting 28:15
settle 55:22
71:14 85:10
settled 69: 23
seven 45:3
sewer 13:6,14
shade110:24
ship 38:12
short 93:1 95:10
20
100:19
shortened 90:15
Shorthand
115:4
shot 34:12
37:14
show 103:11
showing 8:2
shut 12:4
sick 11:23
side2:11 8:3
19:6 21:21
46:12 47:11
96:15 103:20
103:22,23
104:4
side's 28:17
sides 3:25 8:12
25:23
signatories 20:8
signed 20:7,13
20:13 54:5
signed -off 39:9
simple 37:1
51:12 67:17
76:18 100:2
simply 93:24
single 44:16,18
sir13:25 14:1,9
16:13 19:4
20:1 39:19
72:1,2 102:25
103:3 104:1,18
104:23 106:3
sit 7:13 26:13
27:19,20,20
33:21 35:5,16
55:17 85:19
90:7,7,8
site 25:5,7
26:22 37:24
47:9
sites 23:19
sitting 9:13
46:16
situation 22:20
59:5 96:12
situations 33:1
six 27:10 39:21
100:22,24
slightly 39:2
slow 22:6 54:25
63:17 64:22,23
74:23 75:25
76:2,6,21,24
slowing 75:23
small 12:11
smart 74:12
smiling 42:15
Society 65:15
84:4,11 85:5,9
93:14 96:15
104:12
solved 114:18
somebody 5:4
11:12 54:13
88:15
somewhat
11:16
soon112:15
sorry 36:24 37:8
56:9 65:13
69:10 71:6
102:14,21
103:8 109:24
sort 10:14 3 1: 11
sounds 46:9
113:23
Southern 46:3
space 7:6,17
27:7 34:4 42:9
51:23
speak 13:22
30:7,13 32:13
37:15 56:9
69:8 71:5
105:8
speaking 15:23
30:7 106:3
speaks24:19
special 1:2
16:10,17
specialize 96:2
specializes 35:2
specific 3:20
specifically 3:17
60:19 87:10
speculating
107:6
spell 90:10,12
90:16
spend 54:12
spent27:12
50:25
spirit41:8
spoke15:24
spot34:11
spraying 14:5
square 38:25
45:25 85:6
86:21
staff 17:7 50:1,2
50:3,24,24
stamped 92:24
stand 26:1
standard 47:9
standing 81:1
104:15
stands 63:6
108:1
start 2 : 2,11
52:15,16,18
66:17 78:19
99:25 110:17
state 5:4,7 2 7: 3
27:24 49:20
60:19 108:14
115:5
stated 13:13
45:15
station 45:5,9
114:6
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
statute 2:4,14
2:23 3:15 5:5
5:7 15:11
44:22 98:21
stay 7:4 13:7
56:16 73:14
93:24 110:10
staying 3:3
56:18
stenographic
115:8
stenographic...
115:6
step 8:6 85:9
87:9
steps 93:18
stick 55:15
Stokes 1:18 2:2
9:2,8,23 10:1
12:18 13:12
14:18 26:20
27:16 33:13
36:3,24 38:8
44:19 53:25
54:3,8,21 55:8
55:11 64:17,21
65:25 66:2
69:24 70:2,6
77:12 78:8
79:8 81:3 87:6
87:13,19 88:8
88:10,17,22
89:11,21,23
90:1,4,10
92:13,14,21
94:6,21,24
95:2 96:24
109:9,21 110:7
110:7,9 112:11
112:14,23
stone 112:16
stop 32: 7,16
39:15 52:21
57:5,23 74:13
21
108:12 114:5
stopping 55:13
storefronts
51:21
story 74:3 97:3
straight 58:4
79:18 95:25
96:22 104:11
strategy 2:18
10:19
straying 44:21
Street 1:6 48:7
streets 42:4
strict 80:17
strictly 37:9,11
strip 9:15 49:8
49:11
strips 49:5
stuck 81:9
study 44:23
stuff 6:8 7: 2
21:4 23:18,22
26:12 27:5
34:8 37:6
40:22 49:2
51:9,22 52:18
stupid 43:2
subdivision
47:21 52:6
subject 6:10
47:20 101:13
101:15,18
submit 107:13
successful
18:17
sue 105:23
106:25
sued 3:12
suggestion 26:6
suit 34:21 65:20
69:22 99:20
100:14 101:14
101:15,19,19
sunshine 41:11
98:22
suppose18:13
19:12,20
supposed 85:17
sure 2:8 14:6,14
19:22,24 20:14
22:17 24:16,16
26:20 27:16
31:2 32:1
33:17 40:17,25
42:20 52:21
55:5 64:20
89:11 92:14
102:4,20
108:18
surprised
101:25
survey 39:9
suspect 16:5,6
104:14
sympathize
83:16
system 13:6
T
T115:1,1
table 6:3 69:18
85:3 94:12
take 2:5,21 4:25
6:23 10:8 15:4
15:17,22 16:14
16:17 17:1,23
20:16 22:6
25:22 26:1,2
28:11,12 31:4
50:7 52:4
54:25 55:18
59:7,23 63:15
78:10 82:15
84:6,7 87:9
96:8 110:20
taken 2:19
95:10
takes88:18
talk 7: 5,14,16
20:21 23:9
24:2 26:7,8,14
26:18 38:2,3
38:11 43:4
52:14 57:3
59:14,15 78:8
90:9 95:15
98:13,14 99:7
99:11 110:14
113:7 114:3
talked 23:16
39:11 49:3
talking 13:3
20:24 21:2,3
23:1,2 25:4
37:3,5,6,9
45:19 48:19
49:23 50:25
52:15,16,18
53:7 58:5
64:21 67:6
72:3 78:11
87:7 94:18
104:5
tanks 13:4,5,9
38:3
tax21:17 42:1
tell5:21 11:21
11:22 19:1
20:3 22:5
23:20 29:8
32:2 37:20,21
38:10 39:7,15
39:16 49:9
50:2 51:7
57:10 62:1
63:18 64:11,13
84:5,6 86:13
96:24 100:16
101:7 110:2
113:5
telling 14:25
29:3,5 46:23
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
52:8 58:8,10
67:17 73:13
82:19 83:22
86:1,3,5,6,9,10
tells42:18
temporary
31:11 40:12
term 102:24
terminate 19:14
terms 15:9
100:17
terrible 41:14
thank13:25
14:2 55:12
69:20 71:12
79:25 86:17
91:13 95:13
theory 107:16
107:21
thing 6:10,25
19:2 22:11
28:8 32:6 38:9
38:24 39:13,25
51:21 54:25
57:4 65:6
73:14 74:5
76:6 86:24
99:25 101:21
107:13 111:10
111:20
things6:20 7:7
9:24 11:13
24:3 25:16
39:11,12,13
41:19 42:10
43:4 45:18
48:22 49:13
67:7 82:15
90:22 99:1
think 3:23 6:6
8:24 10:25
11:3,24 12:17
12:18 18:2,8,9
22:22 26:21
22
31:10,11,21
32:10 33:4
39:21 44:3
50:23,24 54:19
54:22 62:21
64:18 70:13
72:16 74:18
78:9 96:2,19
98:9 99:13
100:6 101:1
104:19 105:9
105:10,17
113:13
thinking 20:15
22:17,18 31:3
thinks 24:20
thoroughly
40:14 99:13
thought 37:18
thoughts 20:19
threaten 64:6
84:16,20
threats 84:16
three 6:12,19
9:6 15:14 16:2
16:19 22:1,15
23:24125 24:17
24:19 29:20
30:24 31:5
32:15,20 40:14
41:24 46:17
55:6 87:17
90:11 96:6,7
97:2 101:20
throw6:3 19:2
68:16
throwing 21:24
tied 43:11
tight 96:3
tightly 43:11
till 52:4
time 8:19 10:4,7
10:16 21:18
22:7 25:12
28:20 32:17
40:4 41:6,10
41:17 48:17,18
49:15,18,18
50:25 52:16
54:17 55:3,17
56:12 58:13
60:22 63:14
69:15,22 71:9
71:15 87:6
88:23 90:11,15
92:9 93:3
94:13,15,17
96:5 97:11
101:19 102:15
102:17 103:9
107:24 108:22
109:20 110:1
113:20 114:2,2
114:3,6
timeframe 11:5
93:1
timely 14:12
97:24 109:16
times 24:14
74:12
told 18:19 38:1
54:9 74:12
100:20,25
tomorrow 30:20
98:12 99:1
tongue 2:10
tonight95:2
tons 6:21,21
tort 3:13
totally 63:17
touch 9:10 66:2
touched 38:18
touches38:21
track 6:25 7:1
traditional 3:11
4:12 7:23
trail 22:4
train 114:5
transcript 115:7
transcripts 3:2
transparency
53:19
trouble 51:18
64:19 96:2
true 23: 23 28:23
28:25 49:7
73:7 75:9
80:25 115:7
truth 10:17,18
29:3,5,14
try 17:1 19:21
20:18 51:12
97:13 103:9
104:20 106:8,9
106:18
trying 32:17
42:16 46:8
51:7 53:2,10
59:23 68:5,7
79:17 84:22,25
85:2 93:11
94:7,9 96:11
99:23 111:13
turn15:15
turning 23:3
Twenty-five
33:15
two3:1 9:5 14:4
14:5 34:11
35:14 43:10
44:6 46:15,17
63:21 64:16
78:7 90:8 94:9
type 11:25
44:11
U
ultimate 46:19
ultimately 3:25
7:11 34:9
40:11
uncomfortable
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
51:1,2,4,6
114:15
unconstitutio...
5:8
undecided
27:17
understand
11:17,19 25:14
26:21 28:17
31:2,9 34:15
34:19 40:14,15
40:19,20,21,23
41:15,20 42:3
42:6,11,22
51:20 52:9
55:10 61:4
66:22 70:5,9
71:18,19 72:22
73:5,12,21
75:12 78:20,20
79:15 85:4
87:19 88:21
93:11,23 94:4
94:8,9,11
97:15 99:12,23
99:24 100:1
108:9,18
understanding
88:2,13 99:15
99:18,20,21
underway 12:1
undo 18:9 78:17
100:23
unheard 96:7
unilaterally
19:11,15
ups 86:20
upset 38:7
use 26: 24 27:1
27-22125 28:2
28:18 32:23
33:23 38:11
48:15 49:1,19
51:8 66:2
23
82:13 90:20,23
uses 27:6
V
valid 64:13
88:20,21 97:13
97:16,18
validity 20:10
variety 20:9
various 27:6
vehicles 45:3
venue31:19
Vero 46:3,4,7
versus38:22
viable 39:23
Vice 1:13
virtual 40:10
voice 35:15
voluntarily
11:16,21 85:13
voluntary 3:16
10:21
Volusia 38:16
vote 15:22
17:23 18:13
22:12 30:1,3
30:11,14 34:2
35:12,15 36:6
36:8,10,20
54:10 56:22
58:16,17 59:2
59:3,8,11,21
60:18,20 61:8
61:10,12,14,17
61:21 62:7110
63:22,23 85:1
108:1 110:19
111:19,19
114:7,14,16,17
voted 82:22
votes15:14
16:2 29:20
32:3,15 97:2
voting 62:11
W
wait2:12 52:4
61:5 72:9
80:10,13,13,13
93:2 94:2
109:13
waiting 8:16
32:12
walk 34:19 96:3
want 2:20,23
3:23 5:23 6:1
7:13 8:12,17
9:16,24 10:22
11:22 15:2
16:24 20:22
21:11 22:10,12
22:25 24:6,8
24:15,16 26:17
26:20 29:23
30:2,3,25 31:1
31:6,7,13 32:4
32:6,6,7,8
34:13 35:14
36:1 37:4 38:2
38:3 40:9
43:13 44:20
47:17,23,24
48:1,1 49:9
55:20,22,23
60:8,9,17,19
61:13,18118
63:7,19,20,21
66:8,9,11
70:17,20 71:20
72:14 74:5,6,7
74:19,24,25
75:25 76,31517
76:8,9,11,12
76:12,15 77:1
77:10,16,18,19
79:5 81:22,22
81:25 83:3,24
84:10 85:12
86:13,15,18
87:2,8,20,24
87:25 88:2,3
89:5,11 91:24
91:24 93:6,9
93:10,12,13,15
93:19,22 94:3
94:8,11 95:2
95:20 96:9,10
96:10 97:3
98:7 101:7
108:18 109:21
110:2,2 111:12
111:16,16,17
111:17,18,20
111:21,23
112:8,19 113:8
113:17
wanted 7:12
10:8 12:8 18:4
24:2 51:8 54:9
63:9 91:2
95:12 105:12
112:25
wanting 21:15
69:8 94:3
wants 3:18 7:15
11:6 26:1,15
32:13 37:17
47:22 51:16,17
53:19 72:24,25
72:25 76:17119
76:24,25 77:2
77:6,9 78:14
80 :1, 2, 3, 8,19
81:11 99:24,25
wasn't 4:2 7:22
10:16 11:14
12:8 20:6
23:21 61:2
wasting 32:16
water 13:14
way2:22 5:1
8:9,18 10:22
12:5 21:5,8
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
22:22 24:9
25:25 26:6,13
34:18 37:16
40:18,25 41:22
42:24 43:5
46:24 59:7
66:16 75:9,10
78:1,6,17,18
81:13 83:23
84:1 87:21
94:25 95:5
101:23 105:13
110:15,23,25
ways 20:9 32:2
78:7
we'll8:20 12:13
15:17,22 38:11
38:25 42:15
57:2,3 100:3
113:25 114:1
we're 2:13 3:1,5
4:10,15,16
7:20,21 8:15
8:15 9:13
12:12 14:14,22
17:22 21:3,25
22:5,20 23:11
23:12 24:15
25:23 26:2
37:3,4,6,9
42:25 43:3,5,6
43:7119 44:8
44:12,20,22
45:19 49:9
54:24 56:18
57:24 62:11
64:1,17 65:3,4
65 : 4, 6, 7,18,19
65:20,20,23
66:5 70:19,22
70:25 71:9
72:7 76:10
78:11 80:16
81:9 84:7
24
85:16,17 87:17
93:18 95:9,14
95:22 96:23,24
98:21,22 99:13
100:11 105:3
107:22 108:14
109:14,18
113:4,4 114:19
we've6:8 11:8
33:25 58:5
67:11
weaknesses
37:21
web 23:19
week 26:8
Weiss 1:19
welcome 13:24
went 10:10 24: 5
32:22 40:19
106:17
wes 24:21
western 38:18
whatsoever
52:17
white 42:23
widening 10:8
wife 74:11
win 39:23 71:13
86:20,21
windfall44:8
wish 23:21
74:20
witnessed 96:17
wonderful 100:6
wondering
91:23
word 55:15
words 24:21
40:6 77:7
81:20 100:9
105:15 107:19
113:7
wordsmithing
113:3
work 25:25
26:14 27:13
34:9 42:13,14
52:10 63:20
73:25 74:1
75:10 92:22
working 43:19
works 53:25
87:21 110:23
workshop 2:15
workshops 26:7
worst 4:19
106:23 107:2
worst -case 5:21
worth 49:10
wouldn't 40: 2
85:14 96:16
105:25
writ 3:20,20
18:16
write 70:17,20
72:13,14,15
writing 91:25
93:17
written 110:25
wrong 4:9,25
43:17 70:23
80:6
X
X 110:18
Y
Y 110:18
y'all 47:4
yea 24:24
yeah 19:10
55:10,12 56:5
61:4 69:4 75:6
76:11 87:6
94:22 99:17
100:2 105:3,7
106:10
year 10:3 46:16
years 2:8 33:15
45:3 46:15,17
88:25 92:24
104:7
Z
Z110:18
zones 51:8
zoning 28:2,3,3
49:15,18 82:14
C9
1
1,000 9:22
1.6 38:16,18,22
10-year 75:4
10-year-old
43:19
it 15:22 56:4,7
56:16,20
11004:10 51:16
90:25
lath 14:23
15:17 17:23
56:23 107:23
112:17 113:5
113:10 114:1
12251:6
1647:12 23:13
23:14 24:10,10
25: 2,3,19,21
75:1,8 82:8,10
82:11
17 50:4
1987 88:19
2
20191:7 115:11
25 88:25 92:23
261:7
28 90:2
28th 68: 22
89:24
2nd112:15
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231
3
3 110:18
3,000 42: 8
308:19 69:17
70:11,13 72:9
72:25 73:14
74:24 75:17
86:23 94:2
98:6 104:7
30-day 10:13
30th 115:11
328 41: 24
32963 98:25
37 38:21,23
0
5
5:01 1:8
5004:10 12:13
12:14
51010:2 39:7
45:23 47:22
48:7
512 51:20
6
6:40 95:11
6075:17
600 42:1
6600-acre 52:5
7
730:20 44:9
7:01 114:20
75 113:6
7833:3
78-acre 11:11
9
9032:21,22
75:17 101:20
25
95 52:6
VERO BEACH COURT REPORTERS
772-231-2231