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HomeMy WebLinkAbout10032007SPECIAL - Collier Creekrnv ~ +~r,E~'~,A.4T1~~ G,'r ' ` __ '~ HOME OF PELICAN ISLAND SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING COLLIER CREEK IMPROVEMENT PROJECT Called by Council Member Wolff MINUTES WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 3, 2007 - 6:00 PM CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS 1225 MAIN STREET, SEBASTIAN, FLORIDA Mayor Coy called the Special Meeting to order at 6:00 p.m. 2. The Pledge of Allegiance was recited. 3. ROLL CALL City Council Present: Mayor Andrea Coy Vice Mayor Sal Neglia Council Member AI Paternoster Council Member Dale Simchick Council Member Eugene Wolff Staff Present: City Manager, AI Minner City Clerk, Sally Maio City Attorney, Rich Stringer Airport Director, Joe Griffin City Engineer, Dave Fisher Growth- Management Director, Rebecca Grohall Lieutenant, Michelle Morris MIS Systems Analyst, Barry Siepmann 4. SPECIAL MEETING ITEM A. Collier Creek Project Staff Update (City Engineer Information from 8/22/07 Meeting) The City Engineer gave a brief background and current status of the project (as provided in the agenda packet). He said staff in recent weeks revisited other methods including sodded side slopes which would mean increased encroachment into the canal and a hybrid methods which would be far more expensive and is not recommended, and that permits are in hand and staff is ready to go out to bid on October 23, 2007 on the rip rap method. Special City Council Meeting Collier Creek Canal October 3, 2007 Page Two He said it is staff's goal to be able to complete the project with available funding, if we went to sodded side slope it would be less expensive but would require another six months for the permitting process, and would probably put the $500,000 grant in jeopardy as advised by regulatory agents who spoke off the record. The City Manager said it has been four years with this project, staff has followed Council direction, permits are in hand, and we are ready to go to bid on October 23`d, but if Council chose to change course, staff stands ready to respond to the pros and cons. Mayor Coy then turned the meeting over to Council Member Wolff who had called the Special Meeting. Mr. Wolff said for the record, he is a property owner on the Collier Canal, and has conferred with the City Attorney to determine if he has a conflict and has been advised by the City Attorney that he does not have a conflict so will be participating. He then moved from the dais to the podium to give a power point presentation (a DVD of his presentation is on file in the City Clerk's Office). Mr. Wolff opened with a brief background on the project about talk of assessments, determination that the City owned the walls, decision to go with sodded slope, consideration of curb and gutter, acknowledgement that walls were not going to happen, the decision to abandon curb and gutter, the fact that people were against sodded slope, followed by an 11th hour decision to go with rip-rap rock. He said he took former Mayor McCollum's idea and visited St. Johns River Water Management District, spoke to SJRWMD Biologist Karen Krauss who advised that in order of preference walls were the best, then natural grass vegetation, then rip-rap, and finally sodded slope, and her personal opinion came to Council. He said he and his neighbor Bob Audette invited her to visit and took her up and down the canal, and she saw a plethora of wading bird habitat that had developed, because walls were put in during the 60's, had no maintenance and created its own environment, noting the City will be required to have mitigation for birds if we put in rip-rap rock. Mr. Wolff then compared the twin ditch project as a smaller version of Collier Creek, noting that after the heavy rains the twin ditch project performed well, and lent some criticism to the project engineers, citing problems encountered with the orifice designed too small, and rectified by cutting a v slot, exposed rebar which will need to be corrected, FPL power lines not where they were supposed to be, a collapsed culvert east of Eagle Drive not seen by engineers, and noted that there was no plan in place for Public Works to maintain the ditches for debris which has accumulated there. He said staff, at his request, recently looked at alternatives including slopes, noting seawalls are a dead issue because the City has no money for them. He exhibited the engineering drawing on page 17 of the agenda packet which shows 4:1 slope required for sodded slope noting by his own calculations the slope could go to 3:1 from the water level down to gain additional pooling area. He asked Mr. Grotke if this was the case. Eric Grotke, CDM responded that the problem you run into is the stability of the slope, but would have to look at the numbers before he could respond. 2 Special City Council Meeting Collier Creek Canal October 3, 2007 Page Three Mr. Wolff continued stating that this is still a viable option because with additional gain it would be close to rip rap rock. He said he has spent countless hours on the plans, SJRWMD told him if there is an engineer's seal they approve them and later if a problem comes out they will come back and make a municipality go back and fix it. He cited grammatical and sentence structure errors in an August letter from CDM and expressed concern for its meaning and asked why no one caught it. The City Engineer said the word "therefore" should be changed to "but". Mr. Wolff went on to exhibit photos and lists of wildlife species and vegetation that exist in the canal. He said when people are vested in this canal, they become good stewards, but with rip rap rock there will be no access for the people. He asked to be shown anywhere in Florida where there is rip rap rock, noting the twin ditch performance worked and it is grass and water and birds are wading, that a part of Hardee Park is planned to mitigate the damage that will be done to wildlife but the park is illuminated and dogs are allowed in park, stated that slime and pollutant is planned to be pumped to Hardee Park and then has to be carted away, expressed concern for maintaining rip rap with herbicides, stating 60% of herbicides miss their target, we are going to increase the quality of water with rock and them maintain it with herbicides, noted water in Collier Creek is cleaner than in the Sebastian River, given what he has shown and what our community is like, recommended that we sod the canal and save our Sebastian, toss the rocks and save the birds, side slope it and use the savings for other capital projects. Mayor Coy asked how many in the audience would like to speak with a show of hands and then called a recess at 7:10 p.m. She reconvened the meeting at 7:25 p.m., and all members of Council were present. Mayor Coy called for public input. Robert Pliska, DeWitt Lane, recommended City look into a gabion system and briefly responded to question about the system from Mr. Paternoster. Mayor Coy told him his time was up and Mr. Paternoster said he thought that when being questioned by a Council member a person could continue. Mayor Coy said all public concerns will be addressed after public input. Vic Klein, 719 Wimbrow Drive, urged Council to keep the walls. Brad Burnell, 525 Barber Street, said rip rap will remove his dock and reduce property value. Mayor Coy asked what he wanted and he responded walls and then sodded slope. Mickey Groeppler, Wimbrow Drive, said she was in favor repairing the wall that is there, otherwise sodded slope. Todd Klitenic, Barber Street, said he liked the wall or grass to protect wildlife. 3 Special City Council Meeting Collier Creek Canal October 3, 2007 Page Four Trish Adams, River Oak Drive, speaking as a resident, thought rock was a better option because of herbicide use with grass and suggested modifying the rip rap shelf with planting. She said she is for dredging because we are currently providing nutrients into the Indian River Lagoon. Greg Golien, Layport Drive, recommended putting in a seawall such as that at Squid Lips and said the City could find the money for seawalls. Mr. Wolff said absent the walls what would he prefer and Mr. Golien said he wants a wall. Mr. Wolff said he believes Mr. Golien will be disappointed, after four years of fighting the fight he has accepted this Council does not have to do anything further. Robert Michalski, said the walls should be replaced with new walls and has repaired his wall with concrete. Mr. Paternoster asked the City Manager if walls were coming down and the City Manager responded that seawalls will stay in place and be entombed. The City Engineer said everything there will be protected. WilliamThompson, said the walls from the bridges north and all around the park are intact, said plastic walls were installed so people could build and recommended leaving what we have good alone. AI Manzi, Holden Avenue, said plastic seawalls would be permanent and there should be discretion with owner input, and we should have control of contractors and define in contracts what we are doing. He asked do we pump up to the Sebastian River and the City Engineer said we pump down. Mr. Manzi said we have a canal not a ditch and asked what would happen to people who have replaced seawalls. Jeanne Kooning, Barber Street, asked when the dredge material location was changed to Hardee Park and what kind of chemicals can be expected. The City Manager said staff is trying hard to avoid putting sludge in Hardee Park but a location is dictated to us by SRWMD and staff was forced to go with the Hardee Park option for the permit and said whether you build walls, rip rap or slope there will be sludge, though staff will continue to seek a better alternative. Jeanne Koonig asked about using Airport property and the City Manager said FAA had concerns for aviation obstruction from birds. Ms. Koonig asked if the park would be closed noting hundreds of people use it every day, said rock doesn't appear to be appealing and is dangerous, grass is the better of two options, said her wall is in perfect condition and asked what happened with repairing walls. The City Manager said the repair issue died with the need for dredging, with dredging we had to fix the walls, if it were just maintenance we could alleviate ourselves from SJRWMD review, but because of lack of maintenance over the years we could not prove it was maintenance, also the project is funded from a stormwater bond which deals in quality. 4 Special City Council Meeting Collier Creek Canal October 3, 2007 Page Five Ms. Simchick suggested use of the Stormwater Park for sludge. The City Manager said we can deal with this at bid by creating a process open for better options. Richard Scurlock, Layport Drive, said he was at first opposed to rip rap but when shown pictures with use of rip rap the canal will end up 100 foot wide rather than 80 and urged paying attention to staff. Bob Audette, Wimbrow Drive, said Council has received incomplete information and needs to tell staff they need better information, said this canal is for the entire City to use and urged Council to take another look at grass, anything but rocks. Andy Allocco, Barber Street, said if we put sod in we will need to maintain it and at what cost, the wall will continue to undermine, and recommended looking at permanent repair before voting on rip rap and get more pricing answers. Glen Walker, Wimbrow Drive, said his seawall was intact and did not agree with rip rap, and if we can't afford seawalls go with sod. William Thompson, had already spoken so Mayor Coy asked him to be seated. Damian Gilliams, Layport Drive, commended Mr. Wolff for his great presentation, asked where the Sebastian Property Owners were tonight, said he used corregated plastic at $500 per foot, questioned not using the airport for sludge, the City could have obtained grant money by using a lobbyist, the City is looking for drainage credits, recommended selling GDC lots and using the money to fix people's walls. He asked to let the public speak and stop shutting us down. Mayor Coy gave him a warning. Mr. Gilliams said he kept track people and some people spoke over five minutes. Mayor Coy called recess at 8:28 p.m. and reconvened the meeting at 8:43 p.m. All members were present. The City Manager said the project is Councils' to direct, staff has its marching orders from Council, and no matter the method used we have to deal with sludge, and staff had no specific data on gabions. Eric Grotke said they looked at gabions and the volume of rock and the cost was much higher than other options. Mayor Coy asked if it was more than seawalls and he said he was not sure but approaching that. The City Manager said we learned a lot from the twin ditch project, that small modifications and costs in the twin ditches project occurred but the bottom line is that the project was managed well, things do come up and will come up in the Collier Creek project, and said he address concerns and move forward. 5 Special City Council Meeting Collier Creek Canal October 3, 2007 Page Six B. Council Discussion and Direction Mayor Coy said she would give Mr. Wolff the opportunity to speak last. She discussed the following issues, that seawalls will not come down but will be entombed, slopes will change, that this is not just a matter of wildlife mitigation but also of water quality, that the seawall provides a good quality of water, with rip rap water quality will decrease a little bit, with the sod option we will lose water quality, discussed erosion of sod and herbicides, said she wished we had $7.2 million for seawalls, that she would want a seawall if she lived there too but this is a drainage project for the City and not an amenity, said we asked if people would consider fixing and paying for their own seawalls and that was not considered a viable option, that earlier sod was met with objection, people want their seawalls but the funding is not there, suggested if possible we make an effort to save docks, and suggested seeking alternatives to putting sludge in Hardee Park, but not dredging the canal is not an option. Mr. Neglia said the gabion wall system was mentioned two years ago and was found not feasible then, but maybe can be looked into, said Mr. WolfF's presentation made him look at things differently, had a problem with using Hardee Park asking how long the sludge would have to remain and could it be brought to the landfill. Eric Grotke said sludge remains until it is dry enough to haul out and it depends on weather, can be used in the City for other uses, some can go to landfill and disposal costs will be in the bid. He said the whole process could be approximately a 12 month duration because of rainy seasons and dewatering. The City Manager reiterated that with any process we will have to deal with stinky sludge, he wished we had answers tonight about how long or how stinky and said it may be a 12 to 18 month construction process. Mr. Grotke said in response to Mr. Neglia, that SJRWMD mandates 9" diameter rock, there will be temporary impacts on wildlife and as one area is worked on another is opened for wildlife to move to and then they will return to the original site. He said an island type approach was discussed but we don't have a lot of width in the canal, and that exotic trees will need to be removed. The City Manager said the City will have to maintain the rip rap. The City Engineer said all docks wilt have to come out and did not know about compensation or whether or not they will be permitted to go back in. The City Attorney said it will need to be determined how many docks have been permitted, noting we took out provisions for docks in 2001 and staff will be seeking direction from Council. Mr. Neglia said he would like to see something done with either money or replacing pilings with pipe. He said it comes down to a decision for council and a decision on rip rap was made last year, and we need to get it done. 6 Special City Council Meeting Collier Creek Canal October 3, 2007 Page Seven Mr. Paternoster asked if rip rap maintenance was investigated and the City Manager cited some options and that it would not be a huge expense but will be a difficult task. Mr. Paternoster asked Mr. Grotke if he had done jobs like this before and Mr. Grotke responded that they had done the twin ditch project and several similar projects but this is the first rip rap but CDM has a large staff with experience. Mr. Paternoster said FIND may be willing to take some of the sludge and in response to him Mr. Grotke cited landfills take silt, sand can go to beach renourishment and other public works type projects. The City Manager said Hardee Park was chosen because we were dictated to come up with a plan but that other sites were researched including the St. Sebastian River dredge site, trucking, and the airport. He said there are high fees for trucking to the landfill and you can't transport sludge until it dries. He said we will replace trees damaged by the dredge site in Hardee Park. Mr. Paternoster asked with rock is there a possibility that there be a ramp incorporated every 100 feet or so and the City Engineer said there is an issue of access but there are about 60 lots on each side for mile and 24 are vacant, perhaps we could acquire those and use for staging areas. He said we are bringing irrigation lines up from canals to properties and we could create parks on empty lots. Mr. Paternoster asked with 30 to 50 years of no maintenance was this mandated by SJRWMD, and the City Attorney responded that we had to reduce overall discharge as a part of the stormwater master plan, and this canal turned up as one of culprits, that the City did replace dams to spill over the top to reduce sludge to the river but SJRWMD said we really needed to dredge the canal and it has been in the works since nine years ago though it is not a mandate. The City Manager said in `98 or `99 the City was in hot water with SJRWMD because they were not taking apro-active approach and were told if you don't shape up you will feel our sword. Ms. Simchick said this project started before most of us were here, noted the City will be mitigating an extra half acre in this project, that during dredging birds will move back and forth, and asked what was the cost committed to rip rap thus far suggesting we would have to add what we ditched for rip rap to the sod if we go that way. The City Manager said $600,000 was spent so far, approximately $1500 to $3000 in permits, and if we go with sod it may be an additional $75,000 to $100,000 in engineering costs and $150,000 to $200,000 additional for more mitigation. Ms. Simchick asked if we jeopardize our SJRWMD permit already in hand and the City Manager responded the number you can count on is 4.4 million less the half million grant, and we would probably lose some money but at this stage there area so many variables. 7 Special City Council Meeting Collier Creek Canal October 3, 2007 Page Eight Mr. Wolff confirmed for Ms. Simchick that Karen Krauss said rip rap was above sodded slopes. Ms. Simchick said comparing one project to another when moving dirt there are always unknowns and projects cannot be compared, said permits were filed, engineers were paid, people are all over the place and it is hard because the public is impassioned, in 2005 options came up and when we spoke about sod people cried out in opposition because of environmental issues, said environmental is rated higher for rip rap, said she called Nate McCollum today and he confirmed previous Council action, said this method is the most economic and environmental and she can't find she can undo what has been decided. Mayor Coy noted she had a phone call from Lisanne Monier who urged that they remain with the plan. Mr. Wolff said he was sorry he brought this up, stated Ms. Simchick and Mayor Coy spoke of Nate McCollum and said Brian Burkeen got in his face and called him Mr. Rip Rap Rock in these chambers and when he stirred things up when McCollum and Burkeen wanted to widen Barber Street to four lanes and got people to show up at the library they had a fit and called him. Ms. Simchick called a point of order stating Mr. McCollum is not here to defend himself. Mayor Coy said she did not think he said anything derogatory. Mr. Wolff continued stating he had defended Ms. Monier during the Art Festival item, and that Mr. McCollum and Mr. Burkeen shot him down for the same reason, said that nobody really cares, that no Council member has ever been down on the canal after numerous offers, that people spoke about the preserve near Ms. Simchick's house but no one cares that they chase out wildlife from people's back yards, that CDM overestimated impact, he has 300 feet of vista and nothing to lose but is doing this because he knows what is right and wrong, that rock does not enhance, residents are confused because they think pools may fall into canal with sod, that CDM had the wrong slopes and any drawing can be made to show whatever the customer wants, that water quality is not that bad and is better than the river, recommended the sod option because you are chasing away wildlife, no one can show him where there are rocks on fresh water in Florida and no one on Council has done a fraction of the research he has done. He said he sat across table from Karen Krauss and she told him SJRWMD doesn't dictate. He said the bottom line is rock is going to come in, water quality is going to be better, but how will anyone be able to detect it because no one will test it, and trees in canal will be cut down. He said CDM talk about rocks being good habitat is nonsense, the City will take care of docks but they won't, he has heard so many people talk about the environment but they are hypocrites, the twin ditches was sodded side slope and there was no talk of environment, they are going to put sludge in Hardee Park, that putting the sludge on Fischer property was discussed but might be problem with being near Ms. Simchick's home, said herbicides are going to be sprayed and again that people just don't care and wondered how can people be so confused at this point. He said the next time we hear about saving trees and birds and water quality it is all fluff, agreed with Mr. Gilliams about Sebastian Property Owners Association, said he cared and did his research and homework, that CDM has our half million dollars and now it will cost more and they can't even write a letter in the English language. 8 Special City Council Meeting Collier Creek Canal October 3, 2007 Page Nine Mr. Neglia asked if he could tell him why he says Council won't do the right thing and why not to trust staff. He told him don't ever say he doesn't care because he does care, he may not do as much homework as Mr. Wolf but he talks to people and Council does care. Mr. Wolff responded he stands by what he says and again said no one has come down to the canal. Mr. Neglia said he has been there. Mr. Wolff said he has not said anything about City staff despite being emotional but his criticism was for the consulting engineer, and said you heard the City Manager said there is no plan for maintenance, and you tell me Ms. Monier calls, give me a break. Mayor Coy said it is obvious how close this issue is to Mr. Wolff, that when he goes home to look at channel 10 news because she spoke to them and she has been to the canal. She said Council may differ in their opinion but she didn't think it fair to say they don't care, that she respects his opinion, and his diagrams put up were well thought out but did not think he was an engineer and she had to use statistics from the engineers. Mayor Coy said staff needs instruction to formalize this. MOTION by Mr. Wolff and SECOND by Mr. Neglia to continue with the project as approved by previous Council. Mayor Coy suggested that the motion be amended to include replacing legitimate docks and doing whatever possible to not impact property owners replacing docks through the permitting process and also that the plans and bids be as flexible as possible so as not to dump sludge in Hardee Park if possible. Mr. Paternoster requested clarification that the City Engineer had said the docks would be contingent upon St. Johns input, and the City Engineer responded that he did not think St. Johns would prohibit docks in the finished project but would have a problem with them being there during the dredging. The City Manager said he will look at the dock issue and possibly create a policy and would look for another place to put the sludge, though it may potentially end up in Hardee. Ms. Simchick commended Mr. Wolff for making the motion and said any amendments should be done in a second motion. It was decided that the City Manager would address these issues without the need for an amendment. Mr. Neglia said he would like to see a report on the project every three months. The City Manager said he would do so beginning the first one at bid including information on the docks around 10/23. Roll call result was as follows: Ayes: All Nays: None Passed 5-0. 9 Special City Council Meeting Collier Creek Canal October 3, 2007 Page Ten Mayor Coy thanked people for attending. 5. Being no further business, Mayor Coy adjourned the Special Meeting at 10:15 p.m. Approved at the October 24`h Regular City Council meeting. Andrea 8. Coy, Mayor ATT) / Sa71}i A. Maio MMC -City Clerk 10